Help on mark on Italian sword ca. 1580

BladeMan · 22nd September 2019, 09:32 AM

That‘s a lot of interesting and helpful information here, thank you all. Much appreciated.

Measurements are in post #11, i copied them again:
Length is 92 cm with a 70 cm blade, PoB is 13 cm and the weight is 1011 grams

And yes, i bought this sword from Historica Arma a few weeks ago and the dealer forgot to take it off the website.

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2019, 03:56 PM

I forgot to add to my earlier post, the image of the ferri di mulino, which is the mill rind component of blade making mill machinery which may be the pictographic device apparently used as a symbol represented in these marks (of course with notable variations). The varied interpretations of this basic symbol may account for the unusual terms describing them, such as the 'fly' or 'twig'.

In the attachment is the heraldic version from Italian coat of arms.

As mentioned earlier, another application of such mill machinery used symbolically in blade makers markings is the cog wheel, which if I understand seems more used in German context.
These are more of a sphere with dentated lines extended from it in a surround like sun with rays, and this of course often seen as a solar symbol.

It seems that in highly regarded work such as the Wallace Collection catalog James Mann refers to these markings as 'makers marks', which in my impression does align them with certain makers. However there was so much cross use of these devices by various makers, as well as the deviation or use in different number and configuration, aligning these to a particular maker is in my view, typically most unlikely.

Naturally there are many makers marks known assigned to specific makers from recorded material, and those are well listed in the compendiums we commonly use.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd September 2019, 04:46 PM

Now that the town of Belluno has been mentioned, I think it would be interesting to show a blade from this town - although the sword is from Deccan 17th century..
The sword is a firangi, meaning wit a foreign blade, and the inscription says XX CIVIDAL D BELUN XX - which means 'The City of Belluno'.

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2019, 05:30 PM

Jens, thank you so much for this entry!!!
This is a magnificent example, and I forgot our discussions on this some years back. This example inscription was the first I had learned of Italian blades being inscribed with specific city, indicating this may have belonged to perhaps a city guard or militia unit, in this case Belluno.

Naturally our reaction is to recall the famed Andrea Ferara, who has been steeped in mystery for literally centuries, is now known to have actually been a working swordsmith in the last quarter of the 16th c.

Belluno was one of the number of well known blade making cities in the Veneto sphere, which seems to extended as far as Milan, Brescia and Ferara (interestingly not the city where either Andrea or his brother Donato worked).

Of note are the 'X's enclosing the wording, an affectation often seen on Solingen blades, and often with the ANDREA FERARA name, known to have been spuriously applied there for blades destined for Scotland.

It is fascinating learning more on these Italian blades, and most interesting to try to determine the aspects of their notable presence as 'firangi' in the swords of India. While we know there was a considerable conduit of German blades into India, less is known on the blades from Italy, which I don't think had as much direct trade with India...….or did they?

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd September 2019, 06:27 PM

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2019, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

You bet Jens. As I mentioned we know that German blades were often imported into India (through Mahratha ports I believe) but were trade contacts from Italy active in any direct contact as well? The number of Italian blades seem almost incidental in comparison to German, yet we know the sickle marks (regarded as Genoan) were widely copied on Indian blades.

Victrix · 23rd September 2019, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting.
Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

Jens,

It’s absolutely fascinating that sword or at least blade making in old days tend to be concentrated to locations with iron, wood and water. Also, in the area of the alps sword making is an ancient craft where the Celts were known to have possessed the secrets of how to make objects out of iron. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is where swords were mostly produced until 19thC when they could be mass produced. I wish we knew more about the sword smiths and their ancient craft.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd September 2019, 09:32 PM

Victrix,

It was not always so. In Marv in Khorasan NW of India, they did not have iron ores, nor wood, so they had to import it, and they made fantastic sword blades. Ann Feuerback was there when they excavated a sword from the 9th century.
It is very interesting to resarch these old sword makers, but the informations are far between, and not always easy to find.

23rd September 2019, 03:56 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,898	I forgot to add to my earlier post, the image of the ferri di mulino, which is the mill rind component of blade making mill machinery which may be the pictographic device apparently used as a symbol represented in these marks (of course with notable variations). The varied interpretations of this basic symbol may account for the unusual terms describing them, such as the 'fly' or 'twig'. In the attachment is the heraldic version from Italian coat of arms. As mentioned earlier, another application of such mill machinery used symbolically in blade makers markings is the cog wheel, which if I understand seems more used in German context. These are more of a sphere with dentated lines extended from it in a surround like sun with rays, and this of course often seen as a solar symbol. It seems that in highly regarded work such as the Wallace Collection catalog James Mann refers to these markings as 'makers marks', which in my impression does align them with certain makers. However there was so much cross use of these devices by various makers, as well as the deviation or use in different number and configuration, aligning these to a particular maker is in my view, typically most unlikely. Naturally there are many makers marks known assigned to specific makers from recorded material, and those are well listed in the compendiums we commonly use. Attached Images

23rd September 2019, 04:46 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Now that the town of Belluno has been mentioned, I think it would be interesting to show a blade from this town - although the sword is from Deccan 17th century.. The sword is a firangi, meaning wit a foreign blade, and the inscription says XX CIVIDAL D BELUN XX - which means 'The City of Belluno'. Attached Images

22nd September 2019, 09:32 AM	#1
BladeMan Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 6	That‘s a lot of interesting and helpful information here, thank you all. Much appreciated. Measurements are in post #11, i copied them again: Length is 92 cm with a 70 cm blade, PoB is 13 cm and the weight is 1011 grams And yes, i bought this sword from Historica Arma a few weeks ago and the dealer forgot to take it off the website.

23rd September 2019, 05:30 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,898	Jens, thank you so much for this entry!!! This is a magnificent example, and I forgot our discussions on this some years back. This example inscription was the first I had learned of Italian blades being inscribed with specific city, indicating this may have belonged to perhaps a city guard or militia unit, in this case Belluno. Naturally our reaction is to recall the famed Andrea Ferara, who has been steeped in mystery for literally centuries, is now known to have actually been a working swordsmith in the last quarter of the 16th c. Belluno was one of the number of well known blade making cities in the Veneto sphere, which seems to extended as far as Milan, Brescia and Ferara (interestingly not the city where either Andrea or his brother Donato worked). Of note are the 'X's enclosing the wording, an affectation often seen on Solingen blades, and often with the ANDREA FERARA name, known to have been spuriously applied there for blades destined for Scotland. It is fascinating learning more on these Italian blades, and most interesting to try to determine the aspects of their notable presence as 'firangi' in the swords of India. While we know there was a considerable conduit of German blades into India, less is known on the blades from Italy, which I don't think had as much direct trade with India...….or did they?

23rd September 2019, 06:27 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim, you are welcome and yes it is quite interesting. Belluno is in the south of Tirol, in the Dolomits in northern Italy, and at the time it was under Veneziano control. Te town was famous for sword smiths like Andrea Ferrara, Pietro Formicano and others. To this comes that in the Dolomits there are a number of iron mines from where they got the raw material.

23rd September 2019, 09:32 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Victrix, It was not always so. In Marv in Khorasan NW of India, they did not have iron ores, nor wood, so they had to import it, and they made fantastic sword blades. Ann Feuerback was there when they excavated a sword from the 9th century. It is very interesting to resarch these old sword makers, but the informations are far between, and not always easy to find.