Cambodian Kris !

empu kumis · 2nd December 2004, 09:14 PM

Hi Kerislovers,

I have found some interesting pages on Cambodian Krisses:

http://www.fareastasianart.com/store...tasianart.html

How our forumites think about ?

empu kumis

Andrew · 2nd December 2004, 09:24 PM

That rust doesn't look like bronze to me.

Rather · 2nd December 2004, 09:47 PM

Does the blade really belong to that handle? Any information, where it was found? Seems to be very interesting, but for sure needs professional restoration.

nechesh · 2nd December 2004, 10:23 PM

Interesting. I don't see any provenance connected to this piece, such as where it was found or when. Does bronze rust? I remain skeptical. I would not be surprised if the keris form made it as far as Cambodia, but given the dating here they seem to imply this area may have been involved in the origin of keris. The price isn't too high for such a "rare" keris, but i'm not so sure i will rush out and add it to my collection.

Battara · 2nd December 2004, 10:40 PM

I'm glad you brought this topic up, Empu Kumis.

I have noticed these keris for a couple of years now and have wondered about them. The hilts seem bronze, but the blades steel. Bronze does not "rust" oxidize in the red/orange/brown colors like iron. My only problem with these is what Nechesh has raised in that there is not any information, research, or provenance associated. I have looked and have found nothing. Until I do, I am always wary (I also don't get anything I have not researched).

empu kumis · 2nd December 2004, 11:07 PM

There are two kerisses with rusty blades and bronze hilts. The hilts are not Javanese or Indonesian. The hilts might be the only difference and could help to find out the provenance. Maby some of our fellow forumites does know more on styles of Cambodia ? The blades reminds me on Javanese blades. Because of the lost ganja those people had no deep understanding of the keris. Bambang Harsrinuksmo in:

http://www.geocities.com/javakeris/kerisologi.htm

has mentioned Cambodia as one of the homelands of the keris and others too. This is the first time I have found pictures about Cambodian kerisses and therefore I like to share them. There is a story a Javanese princess has been married in the 14th Cent. ? to a king of Cambodia or a Cambodian princes to Java. Anyway I think Cambodia was for some time under Majapahit`s rule. This could be the reason wy the keris spread to Cambodia too. Probably there was not many in Cambodia and ther was no real keris culture. Maybe a curiosum ?

nechesh · 3rd December 2004, 01:58 AM

Does Bambang Harsrinuksmo's rule on the gonjo mean that all gonjo iras keris are not true keris? I have a rather nice old gonjo iras with a beautiful pamor adeg sapu that i would certainly argue is a real keris even though the gonjo is only delineated by an incised line.
I have heard of keris in Vietnam and i suppose back in the day the line between Vietnam and Cambodia didn't exist. Does anyone know what this kingdom was called back then?

Raja Muda · 3rd December 2004, 04:16 AM

Gentlemen,

I'm assuming that the keris, if the Cambodian provenance is accurate, is from the Cham people. They live somewhere in the region between what is now modern Cambodia and Vietnam and according to a history lesson a Kelantanese friend gave long ago, were culturally related to the Malays of Pattani and the Malay Peninsula east coast states. They had a similar Hindu -Buddhist culture before the populace became Muslims.
The language is related to Malay and other Austronesian tongues.
However, the Champa kingdom was slowly swallowed by the Viets and what's left of the people today are usually identified as Cambodian Muslims. I'll try and see of I can dig up more on their keris culture.

BluErf · 3rd December 2004, 04:02 PM

Hmmm... looks kinda funny. The handles looked like later additions. Anyway, the 2 kerises looked South Sumatran.

VANDOO · 3rd December 2004, 06:59 PM

A VERY INTERESTING KERIS BUT IT RAISES MORE QUESTIONS THAN IT ANSWERS. WERE THERE ANY BRONZE HANDLES ON KERIS IN MALAYSIA OR JAVA? WAS THERE A BRONZE AGE THERE AND WERE ALL BRONZE KERIS OR OTHER WEAPONS MADE THERE? IT WOULD BE GREAT TO GET SOME PROVENANCE ON THIS PIECE AND TO SEE IF IT IS ONE OF A KIND OR IF ONE OF MANY. IT APPEARS TO HAVE A FACE ON THE POMEL PERHAPS SOME INFORMATION COULD BE GAINED FROM THE FACE AND DESIGNS USED.
I PERSONALLY WOULD NEED A LOT OF PROOF TO CONVINCE ME OF ITS AUTHENTECITY AS THE CHINESE AND SOME OTHERS ARE MASTERS OF MAKEING SUCH THINGS ESPECIALLY BRONZE . BUT IT WOULD MAKE A GOOD STUDY TO FIND OUT ITS ORIGINS GENUINE OR FAKE EITHER WAY IT WOULD BE INTERESTING.

empu kumis · 3rd December 2004, 07:14 PM

Yes, it raises more questions but the thread is on the blackbord now and if somebody remember I think we all will be happy to hear answers and questions too. I`m myself has doubts on the authenthicety also. The fakers are everywere not only in China. So should have written more better:

Cambodian Kris ?

BluErf · 5th December 2004, 12:45 AM

If there are indeed Cambodian kerises, I would imagine that they are more akin to the Pattani/Yala/Narathiwat/Kelantan style of kerises by logic of its relative proximity to these areas. However, the 2 examples we see are not anything like kerises from those areas, even without the benefit of seeing the ganja.

It is also true that identifying the origins of a keris depends a lot on the handle, but the sheath is even more important, IMHO. We don't have the sheath, unfortunately.

Were the kerises trade blades brought into Cambodia or were they forged locally using local materials? If done locally, wouldn't they have a higher chance of being the pamorless type?

The last thing I want to say is that the handles look awkward on the kerises, especially the curved ones. The lines 'just don't flow'. I think there's a very high chance that they are later additions.

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 05:11 PM

Raden Patah who founded the first Javanese Islamic court was a Majapahit prince from a Cambodian mother (Champa). Cambodian iron is also noted by Javanese Mpu as having specific spiritual qualities. I think that the keris might have reached Cambodia during the Majapahit reign. As the original hilt broke the Cambodian owner made a Cambodian hilt for it.

Salam Keris

2nd December 2004, 09:14 PM	#1
empu kumis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 17	Cambodian Kris ! Hi Kerislovers, I have found some interesting pages on Cambodian Krisses: http://www.fareastasianart.com/store...tasianart.html How our forumites think about ? empu kumis

2nd December 2004, 11:07 PM	#6
empu kumis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 17	Cambodian Kris ! There are two kerisses with rusty blades and bronze hilts. The hilts are not Javanese or Indonesian. The hilts might be the only difference and could help to find out the provenance. Maby some of our fellow forumites does know more on styles of Cambodia ? The blades reminds me on Javanese blades. Because of the lost ganja those people had no deep understanding of the keris. Bambang Harsrinuksmo in: http://www.geocities.com/javakeris/kerisologi.htm has mentioned Cambodia as one of the homelands of the keris and others too. This is the first time I have found pictures about Cambodian kerisses and therefore I like to share them. There is a story a Javanese princess has been married in the 14th Cent. ? to a king of Cambodia or a Cambodian princes to Java. Anyway I think Cambodia was for some time under Majapahit`s rule. This could be the reason wy the keris spread to Cambodia too. Probably there was not many in Cambodia and ther was no real keris culture. Maybe a curiosum ?

3rd December 2004, 04:16 AM	#8
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Cambodian Keris Gentlemen, I'm assuming that the keris, if the Cambodian provenance is accurate, is from the Cham people. They live somewhere in the region between what is now modern Cambodia and Vietnam and according to a history lesson a Kelantanese friend gave long ago, were culturally related to the Malays of Pattani and the Malay Peninsula east coast states. They had a similar Hindu -Buddhist culture before the populace became Muslims. The language is related to Malay and other Austronesian tongues. However, the Champa kingdom was slowly swallowed by the Viets and what's left of the people today are usually identified as Cambodian Muslims. I'll try and see of I can dig up more on their keris culture.

3rd December 2004, 07:14 PM	#11
empu kumis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 17	Cambodian kris! Yes, it raises more questions but the thread is on the blackbord now and if somebody remember I think we all will be happy to hear answers and questions too. I`m myself has doubts on the authenthicety also. The fakers are everywere not only in China. So should have written more better: Cambodian Kris ?

2nd December 2004, 09:24 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	That rust doesn't look like bronze to me.

2nd December 2004, 09:47 PM	#3
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Does the blade really belong to that handle? Any information, where it was found? Seems to be very interesting, but for sure needs professional restoration.

2nd December 2004, 10:23 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Interesting. I don't see any provenance connected to this piece, such as where it was found or when. Does bronze rust? I remain skeptical. I would not be surprised if the keris form made it as far as Cambodia, but given the dating here they seem to imply this area may have been involved in the origin of keris. The price isn't too high for such a "rare" keris, but i'm not so sure i will rush out and add it to my collection.

2nd December 2004, 10:40 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,225	I'm glad you brought this topic up, Empu Kumis. I have noticed these keris for a couple of years now and have wondered about them. The hilts seem bronze, but the blades steel. Bronze does not "rust" oxidize in the red/orange/brown colors like iron. My only problem with these is what Nechesh has raised in that there is not any information, research, or provenance associated. I have looked and have found nothing. Until I do, I am always wary (I also don't get anything I have not researched).

3rd December 2004, 01:58 AM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Does Bambang Harsrinuksmo's rule on the gonjo mean that all gonjo iras keris are not true keris? I have a rather nice old gonjo iras with a beautiful pamor adeg sapu that i would certainly argue is a real keris even though the gonjo is only delineated by an incised line. I have heard of keris in Vietnam and i suppose back in the day the line between Vietnam and Cambodia didn't exist. Does anyone know what this kingdom was called back then?

3rd December 2004, 04:02 PM	#9
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hmmm... looks kinda funny. The handles looked like later additions. Anyway, the 2 kerises looked South Sumatran.

3rd December 2004, 06:59 PM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY INTERESTING KERIS BUT IT RAISES MORE QUESTIONS THAN IT ANSWERS. WERE THERE ANY BRONZE HANDLES ON KERIS IN MALAYSIA OR JAVA? WAS THERE A BRONZE AGE THERE AND WERE ALL BRONZE KERIS OR OTHER WEAPONS MADE THERE? IT WOULD BE GREAT TO GET SOME PROVENANCE ON THIS PIECE AND TO SEE IF IT IS ONE OF A KIND OR IF ONE OF MANY. IT APPEARS TO HAVE A FACE ON THE POMEL PERHAPS SOME INFORMATION COULD BE GAINED FROM THE FACE AND DESIGNS USED. I PERSONALLY WOULD NEED A LOT OF PROOF TO CONVINCE ME OF ITS AUTHENTECITY AS THE CHINESE AND SOME OTHERS ARE MASTERS OF MAKEING SUCH THINGS ESPECIALLY BRONZE . BUT IT WOULD MAKE A GOOD STUDY TO FIND OUT ITS ORIGINS GENUINE OR FAKE EITHER WAY IT WOULD BE INTERESTING.

5th December 2004, 12:45 AM	#12
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	If there are indeed Cambodian kerises, I would imagine that they are more akin to the Pattani/Yala/Narathiwat/Kelantan style of kerises by logic of its relative proximity to these areas. However, the 2 examples we see are not anything like kerises from those areas, even without the benefit of seeing the ganja. It is also true that identifying the origins of a keris depends a lot on the handle, but the sheath is even more important, IMHO. We don't have the sheath, unfortunately. Were the kerises trade blades brought into Cambodia or were they forged locally using local materials? If done locally, wouldn't they have a higher chance of being the pamorless type? The last thing I want to say is that the handles look awkward on the kerises, especially the curved ones. The lines 'just don't flow'. I think there's a very high chance that they are later additions.

29th April 2005, 05:11 PM	#13
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Raden Patah who founded the first Javanese Islamic court was a Majapahit prince from a Cambodian mother (Champa). Cambodian iron is also noted by Javanese Mpu as having specific spiritual qualities. I think that the keris might have reached Cambodia during the Majapahit reign. As the original hilt broke the Cambodian owner made a Cambodian hilt for it. Salam Keris