Significance of Beaded Edges/Borders on South Indian Weapons?

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Elgood’s entire first Indian book was about the connection between weapons and rituals. With multiple religious consultants working with him there is no way a feature that wide-spread would have escaped his investigative clutches.

I read the Bible. There is nothing about dinosaurs, Antarctica or the Earth’s magnetic field. Although there were consultants ... do not compare with anyone.
Why? Because the Bible was written about something else. Also the book you talked about it is written about something else: about weapons in the ritual (and then only one chapter). Above I'm talking about the ritual in weapons . This is another animal (like the difference between a palm squirrel and a fox).

I am with Jens and mross: just a pretty embellishment.

Just an embellishment. Just India. Just another culture. Just three thousand years. Nothing complicated.

India is a country filled with mysteries and hidden meanings.

A typical point of view of the 17-19th century. Where all western knowledge about the weapons of India and its culture got stuck.

Because of that, we may be lured into futile searches for mysteries where there are none

All cats are grey in the dark

[ariel]

Well, if you are so convinced in the veracity of your hypothesis, continue your quest. You will have to find documentary evidence supporting it. I am sure there are many Sanskrit texts not yet meticulously read for a mention of this minor decorative detail even by professional Indian philologists. When you find it please let us know. I for one will be very interested. Good luck!

And BTW, there are tons of discussion points about ritual in weapons in Elgood’s book.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, if you are so convinced in the veracity of your hypothesis, continue your quest. You will have to find documentary evidence supporting it. I am sure there are many Sanskrit texts not yet meticulously read for a mention of this minor decorative detail even by professional Indian philologists. When you find it please let us know. I for one will be very interested. Good luck!

Thank you, but let me say. The traditional culture works in different way. Although in the texts there are indications which artistic expressive means should be used in certain cases, but this concerns, as a rule, fundamental forms.
You are absolutely right when you say that such a decoration are just an embellishment. You answer the question "What is it?". In my case I, as it should be in studies in the field of traditional cultures, try to answer the question "Why is it so?"
Yes, it is an embellishment. Beginning from the 15-16th centuries in India almost everything already becoming just an embellishment. But it is still possible to trace its origin, because in traditional culture nothing disappears without a trace, but is reborn and finds new forms of existence.

And BTW, there are tons of discussion points about ritual in weapons in Elgood’s book

I fully agree and really appreciate such books. They allow us to find answers to questions. Questions and answers that are not in these books.

[Jens Nordlunde]

There are other books showing this beaded edges. Like Mortal Beauty, 2015. Page 208. Here it says Central India17th to 18th century.
Robert Elgood: Arms & Armour at the Jaipur Court, 2015. Page 87. Katar late 19th century. Page 128. Tulwar probably Kotah or Bundi 18th or early 19th century. Here Elgood writes: "Katars with a grip with a single knop, the design presumably acquired form the Deccan, were popular in Kotah/Bundi in the mid eighteenth century. Sword hilts with beaded edging can be seen in Kotah/Bundi paintings between 1760-1866 But do not appear in other Rajput miniatures."

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Indian jewellery has examples of this beaded technique in the South Indian Jhumkas ...ear rings styles..

[Jim McDougall]

These are remarkably important views guys, and all brilliantly presented, bringing to mind so many questions as we look further into this topic.

Here I would point out that Robert Elgood's book, "Hindu Arms & Ritual" is a fantastic reference which in my view (and use) just keeps giving. Its content addresses so many angles and deep corners of the field of Indian arms study that each topic that comes up has detail in areas I have not yet scoured. It is a powerful encyclopedic reference that is not meant to be read through in the manner of a novel or textbook.
As the title decribes, it is about Hindu arms AND ritual. While one chapter is titled to ritual, that aspect permeates throughout the book.

The Bible is a reverently held book of Faith, just as many such religious volumes, and not intended as an empirically studied reference.


I think it is generally agreed that not every instance of decoration has deep meaning or symbolism. It is also well understood that in any form of artistic material there will be license, over embellishment, and reflection of other influences in degree.

I agree that in the study of cultures, and in our case their arms, it is not just a matter of 'what is it'......and I heartily and emphatically agree......the WHY IS IT SO is exactly the way we should investigate these kinds of topics.
This was the true magic of Elgood's book, it reached into trying to explain the 'why' in so many aspects of the intricate symbolism in Hindu arms. This same perspective often reached far beyond the Hindu boundaries, as in so many cases the syncretic transcendance of this symbolism and that of other Faiths became known in material culture of each other.


In India, the creation of innovative arms as well as the decoration and over embellishment were commonly the case with weapons as armourers vied for the favor of their patrons. As with investigation of all arms' decoration, each must be looked at for its own merits and evaluated in accord with others with similarities in the same manner. Very true, sometimes it may well be a case of 'bling bling' but looking for sources of the influences is the objective.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Indian jewellery has examples of this beaded technique in the South Indian Jhumkas ...ear rings styles..

Thank you very much.

[mross]

Well just to make things more interesting, here is a photo of Buster's remake of the King Tut dagger. Note the bead work on the handle.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

... I, as it should be in studies in the field of traditional cultures, try to answer the question "Why is it so?"

Well, any study of anything is an open field to ask a variety of questions and the beauty of research that we do not know beforehand which one is going to be more productive. Questions cannot be wrong or stupid. It is the methodology applied and the final answer that are. Therefore, " as it should be" is just a declarative statement devoid of any academic meaning.

You asked your question believing it to be answerable and important. Well and good. Now it is up to you to employ relevant methodology and prove the correctness and value of your answer.

With best wishes.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I think we lost Nihl somewhere along the road:-).

[Bob A]

It seems to me that one might consider "fashion" in considering the motive forces behind Indian ornamentation.

Tastes change, people emulate those with higher status, and signaling status is hardwired into the primate experience.

Once upon a time, these were part of the English trousse:[IMG]http://[/IMG]

Not, perhaps, containing any higher significance than status display.

[ariel]

And more European rapiers, all 15-18 centuries. All have filigrees exactly coincident with Indian locations.
And I am still not sure whether Indian examples are of a parallel development or just imitations of foreign examples. If we can find Indian examples firmly dated to before Vasco da Gama, the latter might be excluded.