"Short" percussion

Snowman · 30th December 2018, 11:57 AM

Hello!

Here is one of my weapon. It's short (105cm long),caliber ca. 20mm and
not any way luxury.

But how "real" it is? Any idea of origin of it and age? On barrel is number
"914"-and as You see-same number painted too on wooden part.And black paint been on wood too.Cause of militar use?

Side of barrel is number (?) 1AG 773 and right side on lock plate "v" letters...2 or 3 off...

Can anyone say something?...thanks...Markku

TVV · 2nd January 2019, 07:41 AM

This is an intriguing gun, and hopefully someone will be able to comment on it.

corrado26 · 2nd January 2019, 09:27 AM

I think the origin of this gun is india. It should have been made after the Sepoy mutiny of 1857 for the police troops of the East India Company. In cotrast to the British forces in India the native troops then got just guns with smooth bore barrels. The gun shown, probably a former P58 Constabulary- or Mounted Police carbine has certainly been shortened - so the front sight is missing, the iron band at the end of the stock near the muzzle and the cock are later replacements.
corrado26

thinreadline · 2nd January 2019, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

I think the origin of this gun is india. It should have been made after the Sepoy mutiny of 1857 for the police troops of the East India Company. In cotrast to the British forces in India the native troops then got just guns with smooth bore barrels. The gun shown, probably a former P58 Constabulary- or Mounted Police carbine has certainly been shortened - so the front sight is missing, the iron band at the end of the stock near the muzzle and the cock are later replacements.
corrado26

I fully agree with Corrado on this, in the 1980s and 90s World Wide Arms imported thousands of these and similar guns from India in various states of repair , I bought many at the time.

Snowman · 3rd January 2019, 11:45 AM

Thank You!

Nice to know more...

If there are many of this type muskets-do You have photos?

regards Markku

PS. Happy New Year 2019 !

corrado26 · 3rd January 2019, 12:07 PM

Here are fotos of the carbine for mounted police P58
corrado26

Richard G · 3rd January 2019, 12:55 PM

I have to say I think it is more likely an Indian made copy of a British carbine.
I don't think a British made, or copy made under British supervision, would have a decorated barrel in this manner.
As such I would doubt if it was ever in use by the EIC or it's successor IG
Regards
Richard
PS. I refer to the original posting, not the gun posted by Corrado 26

fernando · 3rd January 2019, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

... I don't think a British made, or copy made under British supervision, would have a decorated barrel in this manner...

You've got a point there, Richard !

Kubur · 3rd January 2019, 01:46 PM

May be a British gun with a persian barrel, not Indian...

The souring of Franco-Persian relations opened the way for British military assistance to Persia. Sir Harford Jones, visiting the country as Britain’s envoy in 1809, promised “a subsidy with warlike ammunition, such as guns, muskets, etc.” as well as the assistance of British officers (Wright, 1977, p. 7). The Jones mission and subsequent ones by Sir John Malcolm and Sir Gore Ouseley were soon followed by the sending of a contingent of British artillery experts led by Major Joseph D’Arcy, and by the establishment of an arsenal with a foundry in Tabrīz, Azerbaijan being the province where most of the new armed forces were concentrated. By 1812, the British had provided Persia with some 16,000 muskets and 20 cannons (Atkin, p. 135). Drouville insisted that since the Persians had received English assistance their artillery now matched that of many European countries (Drouville, II, p. 138-39). British artillery was crucial in the battle the Persians fought against the Russians near Solṭānābād in 1812 (Wright, 1977, p. 52). Yet the new hardware proved unable to sustain Persian victories, for in the battle of Aslāndūz later in the year, the Qajar army was outdone by the much better trained and equipped Russians. After the defeat, Fatḥ-ʿAlī Shah declared that the ancestral lance was still the best defensive weapon (Kotzbue, pp. 160-61).

At the beginning of the 19th century, flintlocks were imported from Europe and then were adjusted to the Persian-made muskets (Meen and Tushingham. p. 91). Then different gun production techniques were introduced from Europe. At Tabrīz, the Persian gun-makers fabricated twenty thousand muskets after an English model (Donbolī, p. 133). Later, entire gun and bullet factories were imported, in 1276/1859 and in 1303/1885 respectively, and installed at Tehran. Guns from these factories were rifled (ḵān-dār) and were produced at a rate of a thousand a month (Eʿtemād-al-Salṭana, Maʾāṯer wa’l-āṯār, p. 99, p. 114; cf. Maḥbūbī Ardakānī, I, pp. 196-208 for more information concerning the development of gun-making in Qajar Persia). Meanwhile, indigeneous experiments and fabrications were continued. A breech-loaded rifle (tofang-e tah-por) was devised by Moḥammad Jaʿfar Astarābādī and offered to Nāṣer-al-Dīn Shah (Maḥbūbī Ardakānī, I, p. 207). In 1323/1905 at Tabrīz, Mašhadī Jaʿfar Ḵayyāṭ-bāšī constructed a kind of automatic gun which shot 70 times a minute. Its mechanism was based on that of the shuttle (mākū) of a sewing machine (Rīāżī Heravī, p. 161). However, these individual initiatives were not taken seriously, and guns and gun factories continued to be imported.

in Encyclopedia Iranica This article is available in print.
Vol. IX, Fasc. 6, pp. 628-631

corrado26 · 3rd January 2019, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

I think the origin of this gun is india.

That's what I wrote in my post. I never said that it was made in England! Yes, it was made in India, not in England and maybe not under british superversion
corrado26

Pukka Bundook · 3rd January 2019, 03:30 PM

As Corrado says, made in India, following a rough pattern but not made To any real specifications.

I think many Princly States wanted their own arms of the more up to date style, so had them made locally.
I too have one, a very strongly built version. Heavy and thick, but with a bore apparently never finished inside!
Mine also has the breech-plug forged in place, as we see on earlier Indian arms. The lock is also Indian, but very good.

Happy New Year to all!

Snowman · 4th January 2019, 02:14 PM

Thanks!

Here some photos of lock system.Indian one?

regards Markku

30th December 2018, 11:57 AM	#1
Snowman Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 37	"Short" percussion Hello! Here is one of my weapon. It's short (105cm long),caliber ca. 20mm and not any way luxury. But how "real" it is? Any idea of origin of it and age? On barrel is number "914"-and as You see-same number painted too on wooden part.And black paint been on wood too.Cause of militar use? Side of barrel is number (?) 1AG 773 and right side on lock plate "v" letters...2 or 3 off... Can anyone say something?...thanks...Markku Attached Images

3rd January 2019, 11:45 AM	#5
Snowman Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 37	"short" Thank You! Nice to know more... If there are many of this type muskets-do You have photos? regards Markku PS. Happy New Year 2019 !

3rd January 2019, 12:07 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Here are fotos of the carbine for mounted police P58 corrado26 Attached Images

4th January 2019, 02:14 PM	#12
Snowman Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Posts: 37	Thanks! Here some photos of lock system.Indian one? regards Markku Attached Images

2nd January 2019, 07:41 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,622	This is an intriguing gun, and hopefully someone will be able to comment on it.

2nd January 2019, 09:27 AM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	I think the origin of this gun is india. It should have been made after the Sepoy mutiny of 1857 for the police troops of the East India Company. In cotrast to the British forces in India the native troops then got just guns with smooth bore barrels. The gun shown, probably a former P58 Constabulary- or Mounted Police carbine has certainly been shortened - so the front sight is missing, the iron band at the end of the stock near the muzzle and the cock are later replacements. corrado26

3rd January 2019, 12:55 PM	#7
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	I have to say I think it is more likely an Indian made copy of a British carbine. I don't think a British made, or copy made under British supervision, would have a decorated barrel in this manner. As such I would doubt if it was ever in use by the EIC or it's successor IG Regards Richard PS. I refer to the original posting, not the gun posted by Corrado 26

3rd January 2019, 01:46 PM	#9
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	May be a British gun with a persian barrel, not Indian... The souring of Franco-Persian relations opened the way for British military assistance to Persia. Sir Harford Jones, visiting the country as Britain’s envoy in 1809, promised “a subsidy with warlike ammunition, such as guns, muskets, etc.” as well as the assistance of British officers (Wright, 1977, p. 7). The Jones mission and subsequent ones by Sir John Malcolm and Sir Gore Ouseley were soon followed by the sending of a contingent of British artillery experts led by Major Joseph D’Arcy, and by the establishment of an arsenal with a foundry in Tabrīz, Azerbaijan being the province where most of the new armed forces were concentrated. By 1812, the British had provided Persia with some 16,000 muskets and 20 cannons (Atkin, p. 135). Drouville insisted that since the Persians had received English assistance their artillery now matched that of many European countries (Drouville, II, p. 138-39). British artillery was crucial in the battle the Persians fought against the Russians near Solṭānābād in 1812 (Wright, 1977, p. 52). Yet the new hardware proved unable to sustain Persian victories, for in the battle of Aslāndūz later in the year, the Qajar army was outdone by the much better trained and equipped Russians. After the defeat, Fatḥ-ʿAlī Shah declared that the ancestral lance was still the best defensive weapon (Kotzbue, pp. 160-61). At the beginning of the 19th century, flintlocks were imported from Europe and then were adjusted to the Persian-made muskets (Meen and Tushingham. p. 91). Then different gun production techniques were introduced from Europe. At Tabrīz, the Persian gun-makers fabricated twenty thousand muskets after an English model (Donbolī, p. 133). Later, entire gun and bullet factories were imported, in 1276/1859 and in 1303/1885 respectively, and installed at Tehran. Guns from these factories were rifled (ḵān-dār) and were produced at a rate of a thousand a month (Eʿtemād-al-Salṭana, Maʾāṯer wa’l-āṯār, p. 99, p. 114; cf. Maḥbūbī Ardakānī, I, pp. 196-208 for more information concerning the development of gun-making in Qajar Persia). Meanwhile, indigeneous experiments and fabrications were continued. A breech-loaded rifle (tofang-e tah-por) was devised by Moḥammad Jaʿfar Astarābādī and offered to Nāṣer-al-Dīn Shah (Maḥbūbī Ardakānī, I, p. 207). In 1323/1905 at Tabrīz, Mašhadī Jaʿfar Ḵayyāṭ-bāšī constructed a kind of automatic gun which shot 70 times a minute. Its mechanism was based on that of the shuttle (mākū) of a sewing machine (Rīāżī Heravī, p. 161). However, these individual initiatives were not taken seriously, and guns and gun factories continued to be imported. in Encyclopedia Iranica This article is available in print. Vol. IX, Fasc. 6, pp. 628-631

3rd January 2019, 03:30 PM	#11
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	As Corrado says, made in India, following a rough pattern but not made To any real specifications. I think many Princly States wanted their own arms of the more up to date style, so had them made locally. I too have one, a very strongly built version. Heavy and thick, but with a bore apparently never finished inside! Mine also has the breech-plug forged in place, as we see on earlier Indian arms. The lock is also Indian, but very good. Happy New Year to all!