South Arabian spears

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Jim,

I understand the confusion from a non Arab speaker's position. But beyond that, even with minimal ability to read Arab letters is enough to dismiss this absurdity.

For a comparison, this connection between Rumi and Rumh sounds as ridiculous as claiming the word 'sword' originates from the word 'sweet' simply because the first two letters are the same. There is simply no chance. The word Rumh is not a loan word. It is very much a codified word that has mention in Arab literature through out history.

Thank you for the explanation, which again well explains your perspective, and while clearly and understandably quite personal, is a bit strongly worded. I have always felt it imperative in discussion to acknowledge and entertain other views without discount or rebuke, as in many cases even explanations which may seem ridiculous to some may have some bearing. In any case I appreciate your views in the manner I have noted.


With that it would be great to get back to the discussion on spears, and can you say more on the word Rumh? You use the term 'codified', does that mean obliquely, etymologically explained? Can Arabic words be identified in accord with etymological explanation in the manner of English etc. ? or are the identifications broader? There are some interesting explanations in discussion of weapons in "Armies of the Caliphs" by Hugh Kennedy.

If you know this reference, your take please.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for the explanation, which again well explains your perspective, and while clearly and understandably quite personal, is a bit strongly worded. I have always felt it imperative in discussion to acknowledge and entertain other views without discount or rebuke, as in many cases even explanations which may seem ridiculous to some may have some bearing. In any case I appreciate your views in the manner I have noted.

Jim. I appreciate your effort to try and be a middle man. But what I am saying is not a perspective. Its pretty much Arabian linguistic facts. Your lack of knowledge and Ibrahim's obvious ignorance in the Arabic language should not be grounds for misinformation. Here we have a clear example of an English man pretending to be Arab (or a Baluch in this case) using English Transliteration of Arab words to come forth with the most laughable of arguments.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Jim. I appreciate your effort to try and be a middle man. But what I am saying is not a perspective. Its pretty much Arabian linguistic facts. Your lack of knowledge and Ibrahim's obvious ignorance in the Arabic language should not be grounds for misinformation. Here we have a clear example of an English man pretending to be Arab (or a Baluch in this case) using English Transliteration of Arab words to come forth with the most laughable of arguments.

Far beneath you Lofty, or perhaps not. I dont think my comments and observations warrant your comment regarding lack of knowledge as they were expressed as suggestions with reasonable plausibility. Your accusations on Ibrahiim are personal and misplaced here. I do not believe the use of a pseudonym, a well known custom here and on many forums, constitutes any form of ethnic deception here any more than in the areas he has lived for many years.I am sure the moderators will answer your call and your goals realized.

[kahnjar1]

While I do not wish to become involved in the origins of words, I do sincerely hope that this does not lead to this thread being locked, as the discussion about Spears and Lances was developing nicely.............
Stu

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Far beneath you Lofty, or perhaps not. I dont think my comments and observations warrant your comment regarding lack of knowledge as they were expressed as suggestions with reasonable plausibility. Your accusations on Ibrahiim are personal and misplaced here. I do not believe the use of a pseudonym, a well known custom here and on many forums, constitutes any form of ethnic deception here any more than in the areas he has lived for many years.I am sure the moderators will answer your call and your goals realized.

Jim, I find it odd that you find my comment on lack of knowledge to be offensive. My question to you, do you have the knowledge to read an Arabic word without a transliteration? Or the ability examine a basic Arab dictionary, which happens to be the requirement to understanding the absurdity of claiming Rumh is taken from the word Rum?

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/معنى-كلمة-رمح/

Are you capable of understanding the text here, if so, by all means prove it beyond the use of English transliteration which carry no weight at all.

Also, Ibrahim alBalushi of alBuraimi is an existing person, who i doubt knows of how his identity is used. This is not your random nickname.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Jim, I find it odd that you find my comment on lack of knowledge to be offensive. My question to you, do you have the knowledge to read an Arabic word without a transliteration? Or the ability examine a basic Arab dictionary, which happens to be the requirement to understanding the absurdity of claiming Rumh is taken from the word Rum?

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/معنى-كلمة-رمح/

Are you capable of understanding the text here, if so, by all means prove it beyond the use of English transliteration which carry no weight at all.

Also, Ibrahim alBalushi of alBuraimi is an existing person, who i doubt knows of how his identity is used. This is not your random nickname.

Lofty, I appreciate your explanation, and it is true, I do not speak nor read Arabic (I wish I did as I admire the knowledge it contains).....however your choice if words were what I referred to. I admit I rely on others who are well versed in Arabic or sources I consider reliable. ....but I hardly consider that renders my access to research sources or my knowledge insufficient. Your point is well taken, I cannot make the judgement myself, which was why my comments were offered only as suggestions....not assertions.


As Teodor has expressed, your knowledge in Arabian arms has been often constructive in threads and discussions, however I think it is important to recognize that others 'in the field' have opinions and observations which should be equally considered. They are not intended as 'misinformation' and to rebut or correct information should be rendered courteously, much as others respond to your entries.


It is a great thread, and I hope to learn more on these weapons. I admit I do rely a great deal on Wikipedia to provide overview for further research. Also on various online sources, it is noted that the term RUM refers in instances to Turkish citizens of Greek ethnicity, and RAMAH refers to a shaft, spear, pike or javelin.

Interestingly the term HARBA refers to a bayonet or spear.


I will pose this as a question NOT a comment so as not to appear absurd.


Is it possible that a rifle, with bayonet mounted, thus becoming a stabbing implement.....a spear or lance....might be construed by that term loosely in a military parlance?



Are there notable differences in local dialects, particularly Bedouin , as far as Arabic; in Omani or other regional cases? I know that Lofty is well versed in these matters and the differences between these tribes is intriguing.

[Ian]

Gentlemen:

This thread is being watched closely. The tone of some comments has been testy and personal. The efforts of other members to calm the waters is much appreciated and I would urge those addressed to heed their comments. This is an interesting thread and it would be a shame to shut it down. If it becomes necessary to close this thread there will be suspensions for those responsible.

Ian