Intriguing British sword to identify

Belgian1 · 19th November 2018, 10:24 AM

Hello from Belgium, to all members

Today I have seen this sword, on Internet, which it seems ''incognito'' at auction and seems to me quite intriguing to create a topic of discussion to try to identify it.
It seems to be an interesting model before the sword regulation in the British Army and it presents what seems to be a nice mix of Flank officer with a style of grenadier, a size of Navy edge sword, a pommel of P1788 but looks like Model 1803..... and for you what else

What do you think of this model that certainly has a beautiful story to tell. Wonderful or disappointing?

Thank you for your opinions and opinions.

Have a nice day or night

Belgian1 · 20th November 2018, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belgian1

Hello from Belgium, to all members

Today I have seen this sword, on Internet, which it seems ''incognito'' at auction and seems to me quite intriguing to create a topic of discussion to try to identify it.
It seems to be an interesting model before the sword regulation in the British Army and it presents what seems to be a nice mix of Flank officer with a style of grenadier, a size of Navy edge sword, a pommel of P1788 but looks like Model 1803..... and for you what else

What do you think of this model that certainly has a beautiful story to tell. Wonderful or disappointing?

Thank you for your opinions and opinions.

Have a nice day or night

Nobody have an idea on this curious British sword?

fernando · 20th November 2018, 12:21 PM

Fabrice, you have a PM.

kronckew · 20th November 2018, 05:24 PM

I saw that recently on the auction site. Interesting, but it was live so I restrained myself from query/comment as that is not allowed here.

fernando · 20th November 2018, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... Interesting, but it was live so I restrained myself from query/comment as that is not allowed here.

Correct, Wayne; and so is Fabrice aware ... now

.

Belgian1 · 20th November 2018, 05:53 PM

Hello Kronckew,
Yes indeed it was in auction and I did not know that it was not advisable to present an object in the course of sale. I will not do it anymore and apologize to the administrators.
I found this sword so interesting and original that I was tempted to present it for opinion. I have some swords from Flank officers and I thought there was a family look.
Maybe now that it is no longer auction, can you give your opinion on this "interesting" piece?
Kind regards

Belgian1 · 20th November 2018, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Correct, Wayne; and so is Fabrice aware ... now

.

I'm really sorry Fernando and apologize to you and to the members of this Forum

fernando · 20th November 2018, 06:20 PM

No problem, Fabrice

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2018, 07:26 PM

Well handled Fernando. So is the item now open to discussion as no comments have been issued thus far, or does it remain restricted?

fernando · 20th November 2018, 07:52 PM

No restrictions at all, Jim !
... And you may as well be the first one to post your comments

.

Bryce · 20th November 2018, 10:41 PM

G'day Fabrice,

My main area of interest is British swords of the Napoleonic Period, so I am no expert on these earlier swords, but I think you are on the right track. The overall look is of a slot hilt hanger, popular around the American Revolutionary War Period, but the blade profile is not typical for this period and looks a little later. The guard is as you noted very similar to that found on 1803 infantry officer swords. This sword does seem to be something along the evolutionary line that led to the 1803 pattern infantry officer's sabre, maybe circa 1780- 1790?

Cheers,

Bryce

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2018, 01:29 AM

Totally in accord with Bryce's assessment, the guard has the character of the four slot guards of mid 18th through 1780s, as well as the tall pommel type. The brass and look of the guard with almost a ladder like effect seems in keeping with the 1803.
The blade is unusual indeed but seems reprofiled, and it seems flank company blades were sometimes deeply parabolic and had sharp points like this.

M ELEY · 21st November 2018, 04:38 AM

A very nice sword from my favorite period. Nothing to add from what others have said. The drilled hole and ring near the urn pommel was popular around 1795-ish, but as this decoration (the ring held a sword knot) was often added later to older swords, that doesn't necessarily narrow down the date.

Belgian1 · 21st November 2018, 11:02 AM

Hello everyone,
Thank you for your opinions and the valuable details that accompany them. I was thinking of an early sword of flank officers with a blade for close combat. The details you give, reassure me and now, just like you, I think efectively it can be a late 18th sword for Flank Officers... I love this type of sword, I already have 3 and I do not get tired of watching them, keeping them and trying to collect them.
I think I won the auction and I will soon put some more photos of the guard that seems very interesting for perhaps, having inspired that of Model 1803, I say maybe... but it seems to be a small but nice part of British military history

Thanks again to all of you

Fabrice the Belgian ;-)

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2018, 01:57 PM

I do hope you did win this most interesting sword Fabrice, and very much look forward to examining it further once in your hands!
It is very much appreciated when members acquire a new addition to their collections and share them here with everyone. While admiring the piece we can all learn together from its unique features and character.

I think the consensus is that this sabre is most likely something for a flank company officer, and seems to perhaps have had a continued life beyond its original use. Hopefully we will be able to examine the blade more to see if that very sharp point is its original contour or if it is a reprofiled sabre blade with the more conventional radiused point.

It would be interesting to learn more on just how flank company officers actually used these sabres, and why the very sharp point was seemingly so much preferred. Were flank company officers mounted ?

Looking forward to more pictures and examination, and would very much like to know more on the officers of these flank companies from those more involved in the study of these units.

Belgian1 · 21st November 2018, 05:10 PM

Good evening Jim,
It is with pleasure that I will share other best photos, as soon as I have it in hand. Indeed, I have long been attracted by British swords very and sometimes too curved without knowing the real reason. For my part, I read "somewhere" that these blades short and more curved were for easier use in the woods and groves during skirmishes. But indeed, it would be interesting to know more about these units of harassment and elites who were probably sent to tire the enemy with the skirmishes ........ ????
See you soon and thank you for your contribution to this topic

Fabrice

Jim McDougall · 21st November 2018, 11:51 PM

Fabrice, I finally found of a photo of a most unusual sabre I have had for many years and is basically of the M1796 light cavalry sabers. It is the only photo I have so I apologize for the poor quality.

What is unusual is that you can see the dramatically parabolic blade with this needle like point. The blade is a rod type pipe back which extends the full length of the blade, which was not characteristic of the M1796 cavalry swords of the time nor of course was this point nor the curve.

To make things even more puzzling, the stirrup hilt has a sharply canted grip, also atypical of these swords. This type of grip angle is something known on some Indian tulwars and some Tatar and Caucasian sabers.

Actually this sword was featured among a selection of variants of the M1796 light cavalry saber which was published in Denmark many years ago. As this was the first year of these regulation pattern swords for the British army, and as LeMarchant and Osborn were involved in evaluating select features, there were numbers of innovative ideas tried.

While the 'hatchet' point with heavy, slightly curved blade and the radiused tip on the final pattern served well for its slashing cuts.....there were some who favored the thrust and sharp points.

This saber has been regarded as perhaps either a variant or prototype for the early 1796 sabers, however in later years after seeing some flank company officers in illustrations with radically curved blades, I thought that might be the case for this one.

Whatever the case, it is unusual enough to have been included in that article as a variant, and to see your example here, it is most intriguing to look further into these type blades.

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2018, 07:51 PM

Interesting exercise, it would be even more so if anyone out there had any other insights or examples regarding the swords used in flank companies in these times. While perhaps a bit too esoteric for most, it seems there are others in the group who collect British swords. Looking forward to pictures from Belgian!!

19th November 2018, 10:24 AM	#1
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	Intriguing British sword to identify Hello from Belgium, to all members Today I have seen this sword, on Internet, which it seems ''incognito'' at auction and seems to me quite intriguing to create a topic of discussion to try to identify it. It seems to be an interesting model before the sword regulation in the British Army and it presents what seems to be a nice mix of Flank officer with a style of grenadier, a size of Navy edge sword, a pommel of P1788 but looks like Model 1803..... and for you what else What do you think of this model that certainly has a beautiful story to tell. Wonderful or disappointing? Thank you for your opinions and opinions. Have a nice day or night Attached Images

20th November 2018, 05:53 PM	#6
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	Misterious "British" to identifying Hello Kronckew, Yes indeed it was in auction and I did not know that it was not advisable to present an object in the course of sale. I will not do it anymore and apologize to the administrators. I found this sword so interesting and original that I was tempted to present it for opinion. I have some swords from Flank officers and I thought there was a family look. Maybe now that it is no longer auction, can you give your opinion on this "interesting" piece? Kind regards

21st November 2018, 01:57 PM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I do hope you did win this most interesting sword Fabrice, and very much look forward to examining it further once in your hands! It is very much appreciated when members acquire a new addition to their collections and share them here with everyone. While admiring the piece we can all learn together from its unique features and character. I think the consensus is that this sabre is most likely something for a flank company officer, and seems to perhaps have had a continued life beyond its original use. Hopefully we will be able to examine the blade more to see if that very sharp point is its original contour or if it is a reprofiled sabre blade with the more conventional radiused point. It would be interesting to learn more on just how flank company officers actually used these sabres, and why the very sharp point was seemingly so much preferred. Were flank company officers mounted ? Looking forward to more pictures and examination, and would very much like to know more on the officers of these flank companies from those more involved in the study of these units. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st November 2018 at 03:17 PM.

21st November 2018, 05:10 PM	#16
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	Misterious "British" to identifying Good evening Jim, It is with pleasure that I will share other best photos, as soon as I have it in hand. Indeed, I have long been attracted by British swords very and sometimes too curved without knowing the real reason. For my part, I read "somewhere" that these blades short and more curved were for easier use in the woods and groves during skirmishes. But indeed, it would be interesting to know more about these units of harassment and elites who were probably sent to tire the enemy with the skirmishes ........ ???? See you soon and thank you for your contribution to this topic Fabrice

21st November 2018, 11:51 PM	#17
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Fabrice, I finally found of a photo of a most unusual sabre I have had for many years and is basically of the M1796 light cavalry sabers. It is the only photo I have so I apologize for the poor quality. What is unusual is that you can see the dramatically parabolic blade with this needle like point. The blade is a rod type pipe back which extends the full length of the blade, which was not characteristic of the M1796 cavalry swords of the time nor of course was this point nor the curve. To make things even more puzzling, the stirrup hilt has a sharply canted grip, also atypical of these swords. This type of grip angle is something known on some Indian tulwars and some Tatar and Caucasian sabers. Actually this sword was featured among a selection of variants of the M1796 light cavalry saber which was published in Denmark many years ago. As this was the first year of these regulation pattern swords for the British army, and as LeMarchant and Osborn were involved in evaluating select features, there were numbers of innovative ideas tried. While the 'hatchet' point with heavy, slightly curved blade and the radiused tip on the final pattern served well for its slashing cuts.....there were some who favored the thrust and sharp points. This saber has been regarded as perhaps either a variant or prototype for the early 1796 sabers, however in later years after seeing some flank company officers in illustrations with radically curved blades, I thought that might be the case for this one. Whatever the case, it is unusual enough to have been included in that article as a variant, and to see your example here, it is most intriguing to look further into these type blades. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd November 2018 at 04:04 AM.

20th November 2018, 12:21 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Fabrice, you have a PM.

20th November 2018, 05:24 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	I saw that recently on the auction site. Interesting, but it was live so I restrained myself from query/comment as that is not allowed here.

20th November 2018, 06:20 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No problem, Fabrice

20th November 2018, 07:26 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Well handled Fernando. So is the item now open to discussion as no comments have been issued thus far, or does it remain restricted?

20th November 2018, 07:52 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No restrictions at all, Jim ! ... And you may as well be the first one to post your comments .

20th November 2018, 10:41 PM	#11
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	G'day Fabrice, My main area of interest is British swords of the Napoleonic Period, so I am no expert on these earlier swords, but I think you are on the right track. The overall look is of a slot hilt hanger, popular around the American Revolutionary War Period, but the blade profile is not typical for this period and looks a little later. The guard is as you noted very similar to that found on 1803 infantry officer swords. This sword does seem to be something along the evolutionary line that led to the 1803 pattern infantry officer's sabre, maybe circa 1780- 1790? Cheers, Bryce

21st November 2018, 01:29 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Totally in accord with Bryce's assessment, the guard has the character of the four slot guards of mid 18th through 1780s, as well as the tall pommel type. The brass and look of the guard with almost a ladder like effect seems in keeping with the 1803. The blade is unusual indeed but seems reprofiled, and it seems flank company blades were sometimes deeply parabolic and had sharp points like this.

21st November 2018, 04:38 AM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	A very nice sword from my favorite period. Nothing to add from what others have said. The drilled hole and ring near the urn pommel was popular around 1795-ish, but as this decoration (the ring held a sword knot) was often added later to older swords, that doesn't necessarily narrow down the date.

21st November 2018, 11:02 AM	#14
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	Hello everyone, Thank you for your opinions and the valuable details that accompany them. I was thinking of an early sword of flank officers with a blade for close combat. The details you give, reassure me and now, just like you, I think efectively it can be a late 18th sword for Flank Officers... I love this type of sword, I already have 3 and I do not get tired of watching them, keeping them and trying to collect them. I think I won the auction and I will soon put some more photos of the guard that seems very interesting for perhaps, having inspired that of Model 1803, I say maybe... but it seems to be a small but nice part of British military history Thanks again to all of you Fabrice the Belgian ;-)

27th November 2018, 07:51 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Interesting exercise, it would be even more so if anyone out there had any other insights or examples regarding the swords used in flank companies in these times. While perhaps a bit too esoteric for most, it seems there are others in the group who collect British swords. Looking forward to pictures from Belgian!!