giant tenegre

[blindside]

So this auction recently ended on Ebay (I didn't win it) and while the blade itself isn't terribly unusual, the size is. According to the description i the overall length of 35.5 inches, probably 10 inches longer than most other examples of tenegre that I have seen. Is this common, uncommon, was there a particular purpose for these longer blades, was the original owner just compensating for something?

Thank you,

[Battara]

That’s one honking big tenegre! 😳

[Rafngard]

I think the scabbard is a different than a standard tenegre scabbard also.

Thanks,
Leif

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by blindside

was the original owner just compensating for something?

I think the winner probably just compensating for something


Roland

[Sajen]

It's a very nice Tenegre, my guess would be that it coming from Ilooilo, Panay. Indeed a very large sword of this type. I have one wich is a little bit shorter with approx. 30". The scabbard is similar worked like by the one in question, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=tenegre
Very interesting sword, thank's for posting.

[Battara]

Sajen is right again! This belongs to the lowlanders on Panay island.

[Ian]

This looks to be a very blade-heavy weapon. While most tenegre do have a balance point several inches in front of the hilt, this one would have a balance point much further out than most. Difficult to wield it with any swiftness I would think.
Ian.

[blindside]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

I think the winner probably just compensating for something


Roland

It only took me a week to figure out the implication....

When you get it (assuming I read this right) I am very curious about its balance or if the blade used a more extreme distal taper than normal to pull back its balance point to something reasonable.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by blindside

It only took me a week to figure out the implication....

When you get it (assuming I read this right) I am very curious about its balance or if the blade used a more extreme distal taper than normal to pull back its balance point to something reasonable.

Yes, as soon as i have it, i will answer every question. I'm quite experienced with sword testing, so i can make a proper statement about the combat value of the sword.
It got a couple of damages on the cutting edge and the point, it clearly has seen intense combat. Definitely no representation sword.

Roland

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by blindside

When you get it (assuming I read this right) I am very curious about its balance or if the blade used a more extreme distal taper than normal to pull back its balance point to something reasonable.

Yesterday the Tenegre arrived and it is very impressive.

The blade without the hilt is 68.5cm or 27" long and with 1060 grams very heavy. The thicknes at the handguard is 8mm and at the point 4mm.
The width at the handguard is 2cm and 5.5cm at the widest point.

The point of balance is around 24cm away from the handguard. Together with the weight of 1060 grams and without a compensating pommel this leads to a very heavy feeling. This is a blade designed for one decisive blow.
The cutting edge is still extremely sharp, this sword is able destroy everything, smaller swords, spears, shields and their owners.
The cutting edge is full of tiny damages and some deeper nicks caused by other swords.
The forging pattern looks very promising. As far as I can see now, it is a very fine laminated sword with a beautiful pattern.
The owner of this sword must had been very strong and tall, otherwise this sword cannot be controlled.

The head became almost black after oiling. With its fresh polished silver eyes the head looks almost hypnotic. This is a nice application of psychological war fare. The head with its glowing eyes will attract the opponents concentration at least a little bit, since the brain is "programed" to recognize human faces. In my opinion the monster head is a mixture of a human head and a snake, probably a cobra.



Roland

[Sajen]

Hi Roland,
I am curious to see it in person by my next visit. BTW, the monster head is called Bakunawa.
Best regards,
Detlef

[blindside]

The difference in lighting and contrast really changed the characteristics of that pommel face, it went from smiling to a malevolent grin.

[Battara]

Here is a picture of a similar piece (letter A) alongside other Visayan pieces for size comparison.

Picture comes from Migueldiaz.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Battara

Here is a picture of a similar piece (letter A) alongside other Visayan pieces for size comparison.

Picture comes from Migueldiaz.

Thank you for the picture, that's interesting. It seems, that these oversized blades are not too unusual.

I started immediately to grind and polish my Tenegre and 2/3 of the backside are already grinded. The steel is of outstanding quality, very well laminated, tough, hard and difficult to grind manually. Corrosion and pitting are very even spread and this is always a very good sign. It is also ever and ever again fascinating, that a grinded blade looks much bigger than in corroded condition.
My sword saw very intense combat and the warrior who owned it, was surely a famous one. It took a man like Dan Inosanto to control this sword. This sword is ideal to open a gap in enemys lines, like the European Bidenhander. It is impressive in every detail, the hilt, the weight, the balance, the sharpness and quality of craftmanship.

Perhaps I will make some pictures for the forum when it is done, in a few weeks of constantly working.

Roland

[Rafngard]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

My sword saw very intense combat and the warrior who owned it, was surely a famous one. It took a man like Dan Inosanto to control this sword.

A side comment to the Tenegre (which is, btw, amazing).

I study Filipino martial arts and I've had the pleasure of attending Guro Dan Inosanto's seminars a few times; he comes to my school twice a year. The man is amazing. Though in his 80s, he often moves faster than my eyes can see.

That said, he is a rather short and slender man. While I have no doubt he could something like this, he might still opt for something smaller. Or he might not. Who knows.

Either way, I hope I'm on his side ;-)

Have fun,
Leif

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Rafngard

A side comment to the Tenegre (which is, btw, amazing).

I study Filipino martial arts and I've had the pleasure of attending Guro Dan Inosanto's seminars a few times; he comes to my school twice a year. The man is amazing. Though in his 80s, he often moves faster than my eyes can see.

That said, he is a rather short and slender man. While I have no doubt he could something like this, he might still opt for something smaller. Or he might not. Who knows.

Either way, I hope I'm on his side ;-)

Have fun,
Leif

I would give a lot for a seminar with Mr. Inosanto. Because of him and his videos on Youtube I learned Escrima with two sticks together.

The backside of the Tenegre is done. I made the first staining a few minutes ago. And my strange feeling was right. I hardly can believe it and if i am not totaly wrong, the blade is made of a massive piece of 1kg wootz! A very fine wootz. I took the picture with my cellphone, under precariuos light conditions, in reality it is much more beautiful.

Roland

[Ian]

Dear Roland:

Your observation that this may be a wootz blade is very interesting, but I think it is unlikely. I would like to see clearer pictures of the pattern, which in places appears (to my eyes) to show lamination. There are (almost) no examples of wootz being used among the Muslim groups of the southern Philippines, and those one or two that have been reported may not have been true wootz. There is no clear evidence that wootz was actually made in the Philippines, or the wider Malay world as far as I know.

Is it possible that you are looking at another form of crucible steel with dendritic features, such as a piece of Spanish steel that has been repurposed? The technical details of wootz are outside my field, so I shall defer to those with more expertise.

I will say, however, that the historical evidence of Philippine edged weapons made from wootz is scant to non-existent. Laminated blades are the norm, with later monosteel.

Regards,

Ian.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Ian

I will say, however, that the historical evidence of Philippine edged weapons made from wootz is scant to non-existent. Laminated blades are the norm, with later monosteel.

Regards,

Ian.

Hello Ian,

what looks like laminations is a result of intense hammering of the cutting edge and differential hardening. I have no further pictures of the Tenegre right now but i have a picture which shows similar lines on a Persian Khorasani blade. More about wootz here: https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/am...tr/ib_5_1.html
I think the raw-material was made and prepared (hammering, rolling) in India.
More pictures of the Tenegre, when i can demonstrate it without doubt, that we see wootz.

Roland

[CCUAL]

Originally Posted by Ian

Dear Roland:

Your observation that this may be a wootz blade is very interesting, but I think it is unlikely. I would like to see clearer pictures of the pattern, which in places appears (to my eyes) to show lamination. There are (almost) no examples of wootz being used among the Muslim groups of the southern Philippines, and those one or two that have been reported may not have been true wootz. There is no clear evidence that wootz was actually made in the Philippines, or the wider Malay world as far as I know.

Is it possible that you are looking at another form of crucible steel with dendritic features, such as a piece of Spanish steel that has been repurposed? The technical details of wootz are outside my field, so I shall defer to those with more expertise.

I will say, however, that the historical evidence of Philippine edged weapons made from wootz is scant to non-existent. Laminated blades are the norm, with later monosteel.

Regards,

Ian.

Again, that doesn't mean that you have not seen though out your old collecting years it does not exist. India for example are very fun of creating this steel, and their just a neighboring country of PI. In fact their are bunch of them there now practicing 5-6.

Who knows, may be when they came to PI's southern part specially to teach Mohammedanism, what made you think that they did not bring any of their good stuff? wootz steel in particular? You need to scout the entire PI which for sure you have not done - then and now.., and then, you can make this conclusive statements like you just did.

large headed nails:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...highlight=moro

[Ian]

CCUAL:

I agree with much of what you have said, although I do stand by my statement that a wootz blade on a Moro weapon would be exceedingly rare. Moro weapons are often etched, so such a pattern would be unlikely to escape our detection if it were more common.

As far as trade with India or a direct Indian influence on Moro culture, there is again little evidence for that. India is some distance from the southern Philippines. Trade between China and India certainly did occur, but much of that centered in what is now Vietnam. I suppose India --> China --> Philippines may be one path. Another possibility might be a wootz blade or ingot brought back from a pilgrimage to Mecca.

Wootz is also a rarity in many countries much closer to India than the Philippines, including those of mainland SE Asia and Indonesia. Widespread Indian influence in providing wootz for weapons does not seem to be the norm in that region.

Ian

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Ian

CCUAL:

I agree with much of what you have said, although I do stand by my statement that a wootz blade on a Moro weapon would be exceedingly rare. Moro weapons are often etched, so such a pattern would be unlikely to escape our detection if it were more common.

As far as trade with India or a direct Indian influence on Moro culture, there is again little evidence for that. India is some distance from the southern Philippines. Trade between China and India certainly did occur, but much of that centered in what is now Vietnam. I suppose India --> China --> Philippines may be one path. Another possibility might be a wootz blade or ingot brought back from a pilgrimage to Mecca.

Wootz is also a rarity in many countries much closer to India than the Philippines, including those of mainland SE Asia and Indonesia. Widespread Indian influence in providing wootz for weapons does not seem to be the norm in that region.

Ian

Hi sir, while I have no input regarding the sword's wootz-ness, would just like to gently point out that the sword in question (Panay Tenegre) came from Panay, that's in the Visayas, not in Mindanao (where the Moros thrived). Although I'm not sure if the Visayan traditional smiths back then can do wootz; certainly I haven't heard of any Visayan antique blade that exhibited wootz.

[kino]

Originally Posted by Ian

As far as trade with India or a direct Indian influence on Moro culture, there is again little evidence for that. India is some distance from the southern Philippines.

Ian

Take a look at this,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Chevron

The probability of a wootz blade existing in the Philippines is low but I would never say never. It wasnt too long ago that some folks were saying that a twist core Barung blade didn't exist but we were pleasantly proven wrong.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by kino

Take a look at this,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Chevron

The probability of a wootz blade existing in the Philippines is low but I would never say never. It wasnt too long ago that some folks were saying that a twist core Barung blade didn't exist but we were pleasantly proven wrong.

Hi kino:

Thanks for the link to your chevron-bladed kris. As noted by several commenters in that thread it is a very unusual kris and possibly not of Moro origin--perhaps Malay. The largest extant Indian population in SE Asia is in Singapore and it is possible that some elements of Indian metal working existed there in the 19th C. Malaya and Singapore were part of the British Empire at that time, as well as India.

As I was careful to state earlier in this thread, I'm open to the possibility of wootz being used to make a Moro edged weapon, but such a finding would be very rare. Just as rare, say, as a chevron-bladed kris of which there has been one example shown on this forum and none of our experienced commenters have seen another.

Ian.

[Ian]

Hello xasterix:

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the reminder that we are dealing with a Panay tenegre. I had not forgotten. The natives of Panay are not noted for their extensive sea traveling and trade with foreigners, although Chinese merchants and other Filipino groups have been active in that area. It is probably one of the least likely places in the Philippines to have found a blade made of wootz. For wootz to arrive there would require trade with a foreigner or possibly in the form of a gift.

The Moro, especially those of the Sulu Archipelago, on the other hand were extensive seafarers and noted pirates of the South China Sea. They traded with N. Borneo, Brunei, Malaysia, China, etc. and were much more likely to come in contact with foreign goods via those sources. The Moro are also Muslims and wootz is associated with other Muslim groups, so a further connection might occur through the commonality of religion and culture. Whatever the possible pathway of wootz into the Philippines, it is much more likely that it would pass through Moro hands than come directly to a native of Panay. That is why I spoke of a Moro influence in connection with this sword. The fact that we see very few, if any, examples of wootz in Moro blades makes this tenegre all the more difficult to understand (if the steel is indeed wootz).

If Roland is correct, it is baffling how this sword came about.

Ian.

[kino]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi kino:

As noted by several commenters in that thread it is a very unusual kris and possibly not of Moro origin--perhaps Malay.

There’s only one mention of “Malay”, in the thread of the chevron patterned kris and it is in reference to the hilt cup not the blade

[ariel]

Re: Kino's example of chevron Moro blade.

According to Elgood , chevron blades were " invented" in India in late 19th century by a single smith from Udaipur, named Gopilal and this tradition has been continued by his family till now. They said that most of the existing blades are contemporary and that the only other place that made them was a town of Bhinder. Elgood even observed actual making of such a blade ( R. Elgood " Arms and Armour at the Jaipur court" , p.146-147).

Seems to me that the attribution of the blade to late 19th - 20 century might be correct.
In any case, some master smith there picked up the newest Indian fashion early on and did a good job.

[RSWORD]

No comment on the possibility if a wootz blade could have been made or imported into the Philippines. However, I will focus strictly on the blade in question. From what I can see in the pictures this is not wootz. The pattern exhibited does not follow what you typically see in wootz. Certainly a far cry from the example in the book. Yes, wootz can have the pattern distorted at the edge from hammering but it still exhibits the flowing lines as seen on the balance of the blade. I think in this Panay blade what you see is a fine grain structure not unlike what you would see in Japanese hada. This blade has been folded many times and well hammered to make an almost crystalline pattern. I have seen this before in Filipino blades. Remember, not all patterned blades are wootz. My vote is for a blade that has many layers finely hammered creating a Japanese hada affect.

[ShazamsLaw]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

No comment on the possibility if a wootz blade could have been made or imported into the Philippines. However, I will focus strictly on the blade in question. From what I can see in the pictures this is not wootz. The pattern exhibited does not follow what you typically see in wootz. Certainly a far cry from the example in the book. Yes, wootz can have the pattern distorted at the edge from hammering but it still exhibits the flowing lines as seen on the balance of the blade. I think in this Panay blade what you see is a fine grain structure not unlike what you would see in Japanese hada. This blade has been folded many times and well hammered to make an almost crystalline pattern. I have seen this before in Filipino blades. Remember, not all patterned blades are wootz. My vote is for a blade that has many layers finely hammered creating a Japanese hada affect.

I don't recall Visayan blades having that type of quality steel. More or less they mostly worked with iron "as breakable as glass" which they imported from china.

[kino]

Originally Posted by ariel

Re: Kino's example of chevron Moro blade.

According to Elgood , chevron blades were " invented" in India in late 19th century by a single smith from Udaipur, named Gopilal and this tradition has been continued by his family till now. They said that most of the existing blades are contemporary and that the only other place that made them was a town of Bhinder. Elgood even observed actual making of such a blade ( R. Elgood " Arms and Armour at the Jaipur court" , p.146-147).

Seems to me that the attribution of the blade to late 19th - 20 century might be correct.
In any case, some master smith there picked up the newest Indian fashion early on and did a good job.

Thank you Ariel for sharing this anecdote.