"Is it really a Cockatoo?"

Ian · 20th June 2018, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am arguing nothing here Kai, simply presenting information for consideration. That is why i said that these images "seem to help establish" rather than "here is the evidence that this is true."

I do believe, however, that one can find a great deal of commonality between these old bird-like gold hilts and various depictions of the Sarimanok. They do indeed seem to be abstract bird heads and they look quite similar to many established depictions of Sarimanok.
Here is some further information about the Sarimanok gathered from the internet. There are numerous origin stories so it is difficult sorting out what the actual development of this mythological beast actually is, but it is clearly an old and important symbolic creature to the region while one can find little to nothing showing the importance of kakatau (cockatoo) to the Moro.
BTW, it does seem that most sources of information that i encounter seem to define the word "Sarimanok" as Sari-article of clothing, usually colorful and Manok-chicken or bird. So the Sairmanok is seen as a colorfully dressed bird. In some stories it seems to have its roots with the Maranao totem bird called Itotoro who has an invisible spirit twin called Inikadowa and together they act as a medium to the spirit world.
Another theory is the the Sarimanok came from the Garuda and then developed into its own creature. It does appear, however, that it did exist in Maranao lore before the arrival of the Spanish.
The FMA blog linked here cites its use as a symbol of resistance against the Spanish. Perhaps another reason why such a symbolic presence might end up being represented on a kris used to fight in such resistance.
And yes, none of this is particularly back up by any strong extant sources that Kai (and i believe all of us) would like to see. But i must remind you Cato's hypothesis that the pommel of the kris that we speak about here might represent a kakatau does not really have any more evidence behind it either.

http://pinoy-culture.com/the-sariman...of-lake-lanao/

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/06/sa...no-spirit.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarimanok

David:

Thanks for the additional research. I found the article on the Pinoy-Culture site particularly helpful in setting out diverse theories about the origins of the sarimanok. The blog comments are interesting opinions but offer less than the other article.

Because Filipino web sites tend to disappear over time, I downloaded these article and post them here as PDF files for future reference.

Ian.

--------------Attachment: Copies of Sarimanok Articles---------------
.

David · 21st June 2018, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

David:

Thanks for the additional research. I found the article on the Pinoy-Culture site particularly helpful in setting out diverse theories about the origins of the sarimanok. The blog comments are interesting opinions but offer less than the other article.

Because Filipino web sites tend to disappear over time, I downloaded these article and post them here as PDF files for future reference.

Ian.

--------------Attachment: Copies of Sarimanok Articles---------------
.

I agree Ian. What i did find relevant about the blog article was that it had a martial arts perspective and spoke about the Sarimanok as being used as a symbol of resistance against the Spanish. But as i also pointed out, there are no points of reference for these observations so it's hard to say what the truth is here.
Thanks for copying them though. I hate when links disappear.

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2018, 05:26 AM

This Sarimanok thing has got me intrigued, but I cannot speak the Maranao language, and since it appears that the Sarimanok first appeared within Maranao culture it is essential that anybody attempting to fathom the original meaning and intent of the word "Sarimanok" must begin by gaining a knowledge of the language, then the culture and society.

So, rather than assemble all of the possible meanings for the two words "sari" and "manok" why not home in on the language of the people who first gave birth to the Sarimanok?

The word "sari" is found in Malay, Indonesian, Javanese, Old Javanese, Sundanese, Balinese. In these languages it has a number of meanings, some related, some unrelated, and it can also be a woman's name.

It would surprise me if it did not have a number of meanings in the Maranao language also, and the probable meaning to choose then becomes a matter of context.

Incidentally, the word "sari" with various accented pronunciations, as well as "sati" and "sara" with a similar number of accented pronunciation variations also appear in Sanscrit. The origin of the word "sari" is far from a settled matter amongst those people who make the study of language their profession.

The word "manuk/manok" appears to be indigenous Malay, and again, where it appears in an Indonesian language it can have a variety of applications, but principally it means "bird".

What is the correct meaning of the word "manok/manuk" in the Maranao language?

When it is understood clearly exactly what the word "Sarimanok" means within an enlightened Maranao cultural context, then perhaps it may be possible go behind this first level of understanding by probing the Maranao cultural understanding of the idea of "Sarimanok".

Possibly when the matter is thoroughly understood, we may find that there is a relationship between the Sarimanok as a pommel and ancestor/dewa/dewi as ancestor that applies with weapon hilts of other Indianised SE Asian states.

Ian · 21st June 2018, 10:10 AM

Alan,

I agree with much of what you say about understanding the Maranao language and culture. However, the present discussion refers back to the shape of the hilt that Cato has termed kakatua. This shape is not peculiarly Maranao and features prominently among all Moro groups--including the Maguindanao, the various groups in the Sulu Archipelago, and those in N. Borneo and the Brunei Sultanate. The style has also been identified in Malaysian examples.

It would seem that we need to look beyond the Maranao if Ron's thesis is to be tested. That's a substantial task if we are to understand the meaning of sarimanok among all these groups, or even whether sarimanok has a significant meaning for groups other than the Maranao.

Ian.

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2018, 12:47 PM

Yes Ian, I do understand that the discussion concerns the shape of the hilt and whether it actually represents a kakatau or a sarimanok.

I have no intention at all of getting involved in this, simply because I believe I would need to devote far more time than I have available to assemble a cultural, societal and linguistic base that would permit me to provide a defensible opinion.

However, to my way of thinking, and I acknowledge that my way of thinking is very often out of synch with most of the people who contribute to this Forum, to my way of thinking it is absolutely essential to gain an understanding of exactly how the Sarimanok is understood by the people within the Maranao community who have the indigenous cultural knowledge that would enable those people to form a valid opinion in respect of the way in which the Sarimanok can be legitimately understood.

Once that understanding, which is the cultural property of the people who originated the idea of the Sarimanok, is available to people who are outside the framework of Maranao culture and society, then, and only then might it become possible for those "outsiders" to attempt to understand sufficient to form an opinion on the validity of Sarimanok or of kakatua.

I know virtually nothing of Maranao culture, but I do have a pretty solid grasp of the belief patterns of the peoples of the Indianised states of SE Asia. It is my feeling --- I emphasise "feeling" --- that when this matter finally comes to an acceptable conclusion that we shall be able to see connections between the cultural relevance of these Maranao hilts, and the cultural relevance of other weapon hilts throughout Maritime SE Asia, most especially in those parts of SE Asia that can be regarded as having been subject to influence from the Indian Sub-Continent.

But before any of that can happen I believe it is necessary to come to a valid understanding of exactly what it is that is under discussion, and the core of this discussion is centered around two physical things that in their cultural settings have become ideas. My approach to this riddle would be to first attempt to understand those ideas from a Maranao perspective. I would not focus on form and personal opinion, these could come later.

In any case, it is an interesting discussion, even if it seems to be going nowhere. I'm enjoying it.

Gavin Nugent · 5th March 2023, 12:47 AM

Linky exchange program

The icon relevance
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=70

My perception of the icon
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=71

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=72

The further discussion
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27729

21st June 2018, 05:26 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,873	This Sarimanok thing has got me intrigued, but I cannot speak the Maranao language, and since it appears that the Sarimanok first appeared within Maranao culture it is essential that anybody attempting to fathom the original meaning and intent of the word "Sarimanok" must begin by gaining a knowledge of the language, then the culture and society. So, rather than assemble all of the possible meanings for the two words "sari" and "manok" why not home in on the language of the people who first gave birth to the Sarimanok? The word "sari" is found in Malay, Indonesian, Javanese, Old Javanese, Sundanese, Balinese. In these languages it has a number of meanings, some related, some unrelated, and it can also be a woman's name. It would surprise me if it did not have a number of meanings in the Maranao language also, and the probable meaning to choose then becomes a matter of context. Incidentally, the word "sari" with various accented pronunciations, as well as "sati" and "sara" with a similar number of accented pronunciation variations also appear in Sanscrit. The origin of the word "sari" is far from a settled matter amongst those people who make the study of language their profession. The word "manuk/manok" appears to be indigenous Malay, and again, where it appears in an Indonesian language it can have a variety of applications, but principally it means "bird". What is the correct meaning of the word "manok/manuk" in the Maranao language? When it is understood clearly exactly what the word "Sarimanok" means within an enlightened Maranao cultural context, then perhaps it may be possible go behind this first level of understanding by probing the Maranao cultural understanding of the idea of "Sarimanok". Possibly when the matter is thoroughly understood, we may find that there is a relationship between the Sarimanok as a pommel and ancestor/dewa/dewi as ancestor that applies with weapon hilts of other Indianised SE Asian states. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 21st June 2018 at 05:37 AM.

5th March 2023, 12:47 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Linky exchange program The icon relevance http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=70 My perception of the icon http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=71 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=72 The further discussion http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27729 Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 5th March 2023 at 03:31 AM.

21st June 2018, 10:10 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,181	Alan, I agree with much of what you say about understanding the Maranao language and culture. However, the present discussion refers back to the shape of the hilt that Cato has termed kakatua. This shape is not peculiarly Maranao and features prominently among all Moro groups--including the Maguindanao, the various groups in the Sulu Archipelago, and those in N. Borneo and the Brunei Sultanate. The style has also been identified in Malaysian examples. It would seem that we need to look beyond the Maranao if Ron's thesis is to be tested. That's a substantial task if we are to understand the meaning of sarimanok among all these groups, or even whether sarimanok has a significant meaning for groups other than the Maranao. Ian.

21st June 2018, 12:47 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,873	Yes Ian, I do understand that the discussion concerns the shape of the hilt and whether it actually represents a kakatau or a sarimanok. I have no intention at all of getting involved in this, simply because I believe I would need to devote far more time than I have available to assemble a cultural, societal and linguistic base that would permit me to provide a defensible opinion. However, to my way of thinking, and I acknowledge that my way of thinking is very often out of synch with most of the people who contribute to this Forum, to my way of thinking it is absolutely essential to gain an understanding of exactly how the Sarimanok is understood by the people within the Maranao community who have the indigenous cultural knowledge that would enable those people to form a valid opinion in respect of the way in which the Sarimanok can be legitimately understood. Once that understanding, which is the cultural property of the people who originated the idea of the Sarimanok, is available to people who are outside the framework of Maranao culture and society, then, and only then might it become possible for those "outsiders" to attempt to understand sufficient to form an opinion on the validity of Sarimanok or of kakatua. I know virtually nothing of Maranao culture, but I do have a pretty solid grasp of the belief patterns of the peoples of the Indianised states of SE Asia. It is my feeling --- I emphasise "feeling" --- that when this matter finally comes to an acceptable conclusion that we shall be able to see connections between the cultural relevance of these Maranao hilts, and the cultural relevance of other weapon hilts throughout Maritime SE Asia, most especially in those parts of SE Asia that can be regarded as having been subject to influence from the Indian Sub-Continent. But before any of that can happen I believe it is necessary to come to a valid understanding of exactly what it is that is under discussion, and the core of this discussion is centered around two physical things that in their cultural settings have become ideas. My approach to this riddle would be to first attempt to understand those ideas from a Maranao perspective. I would not focus on form and personal opinion, these could come later. In any case, it is an interesting discussion, even if it seems to be going nowhere. I'm enjoying it.