Osborn's G Stamp

Bryce · 6th June 2018, 05:02 AM

G'day GC,

I posted that sword because I thought you may have been able to tell me something about the motifs on the blade, not as part of the discussion on the G stamp. It is the only sword in my collection with American inspired blade decoration, as my interest is mainly in British swords.

Back to G stamps, I am not claiming that G stamps were associated with Gunby, but rather Henry Osborn. 100% of Osborn marked officer swords have a G stamp. If a G stamped blade is marked to someone other than Osborn, it can be shown that they are retailers rather than manufacturers of sword blades. Henry Osborn made his own blades, he didn't import them. Attached is an extract from the "The Literary Panorama Vol IV" dated September 1808, extolling the virtues of Osborn blades over imported German ones.

Cheers,

Bryce

Hotspur · 6th June 2018, 06:20 AM

Thanks for the attachment. It might hold more water as to Osborn being responsible for the G stamp if it was mentioned in the attached article.

I am reminded of a 14th century edict regarding armour and arms quality with the inent of disallowing Flemish goods to favor England production but with the demand quality be met. At the same time, barrels of blades entering London and being dispersed throughout Britain to be furbished in country.

I see no proof of all Osborn officer sword blades (and why would it be only officer's blades?) bearing the G stamp. Nor the mark exclusive to his wares (you do make a point he may be supplying others). The German resident not mentioned in that article I have to assume was either JJ Runkel (who was called out for his German blades) or the S&K agent. Whomever it was, was still selling blades to English furbishers and trade flourishing despite this report.

1808 is a rather late date, in regard to several of the patterns that turn up with the G stamp and not marked to Osborn. If the G stamp is to be assumed to exclusive to blades made through his production, where is the smoking gun? Why a G? Why were some marked GG?

There might be a better argument that blister/shear steel blades were phasing out as cast steel blades were coming in. Despite this report attached that Osborn was in fact producing these blades, I'd be interested in seeing more about his mills and foundries (producing thousands of blades). I had spent some time years ago looking at steel production and the changes in ownership and or control of sword blade production. Yet, the G mark seems reclusive as to why the stamp was appearing.

Anyway, the Bolton I just showed has that similar bright etch in a timeline some might expect quite early for such work, when most of it's contemporaries are blue&gilt. Should we then assume that Bolton was always working with Osborn and Osborn not just producing the blades but etching them as well? One thing I have noticed over the span of a decade or so is a rather individual type/style of b&g needle etching that does not mimic the Osborn blade decorations and so also true of those two bright etched blades shown in this thread.

If you find the time, browse my photo archive linked above and view all the Bates/Bolton blades and the Osborn blades. Note the differences in needle etching. Similar, but at the same time quite dissimilar. Both turning up with G stamps at times.

You might seek out and hail Richard Dellar, as a recently published author regarding British cavalry swords. I don't own the title, as a tangent I have not entirely followed but I do view a lot of US targeted British made swords.

Cheers
GC

In addendum, I have lost my notes on steel production, as I had stored them on the British History Online site. That shelf was wiped clean when they rebuilt their site http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

Bryce · 6th June 2018, 07:44 AM

G'Day GC,

At this stage I have no idea why Osborn marked some blades with 1,2 or even 4 G's. If you have any theories I am all ears. As to whether or not all Osborn marked officer's blades have a G stamp I can say that every one in my collection does, every one in Richard Dellar's collection does, every one in several other collections does and every one I have come across on the internet with a clear shot of the ricasso does. The majority (possibly all?) Osborn and Gunby marked swords do as well. Originally I thought that Osborn and Gunby stopped marking blades with a G stamp at some stage. Now I am not so sure. The G stamps can be very difficult to spot even on a sword without langets. Can I be sure that 100% of Osborn marked swords have a G stamp? The answer is no, hence the appeal for other collectors to check their swords for G stamps as well. What I am confident of is that the vast majority, (if not all) of Osborn marked officer's swords have one. I am less confident about Osborn's troopers swords as I don't have any in my collection. Richard Dellar has one and he says it doesn't have a stamp. The problem is that troopers' swords are less common in our collections and most have langets. These G stamps can be very difficult to spot behind langets. With several of my own swords I have been convinced they didn't have stamps, only to have another harder look and discover they do have G stamps.

Cheers,
Bryce

Hotspur · 6th June 2018, 08:42 AM

My Osborn eagle pommel sword has a 12 stamp

Most Osborn eagle pommel swords (decorated or not) do not seem to display a G stamp and as many but a few) Bolton eagle pommels do seem to surface with the G stamp.

If you have already made up your mind and have run this by Dellar, I can only but continue to be unconvinced. It may take dismantling all these swords we have to look at tang marks as well.

In the files I had linked and mentioned again is an example of the same etch pattern of your bright sword but done in b&g (a set with a prefix of ful in that Osborn folder). Look closely at the US eagles displayed and the subtle differences in etches, both bright and b&g needlework. You'll see the example of the b&g Osborn that mirrors your bright etch and if you bother looking at my Bolton folder, you will see many Bolton examples that mirrors that Bolton I posted with the bright etch. Again, my point that there does not seem to have been a single source of a blade supply and both (at times) appearing with G stamps.

How much has Dellar delved into cutlers row in Birmingham and how many mills and foundries has he indexed? Curious minds and all that.

To me, if a blade is unmarked as to a retailer or known maker, I can only go by trends of the components and blade decorations. It is not just Wells and Upson, nor Spies and Wolfe in the US but continued mysteries such as the John Salter generations and distributions. Osborn styled swords thought to be originating with Osborn and sold through all on that brief list.

Also in my brief two decades of sword interests, as soon as I feel I have reached the pinnacle of understanding about a subject, more is surely to come. Let's see a complete history of Osborn's works to flesh out what is a nice bit of news copy but hardly conclusive (to me) that his smithys were producing those supposed thousands and that his work was above all others. Surely such information would be atop the cream of Birmingham history.

As contrary as I may seem, I appreciate your thoughts and additional notes. If the G was not necessarily an Osborn specific trait but found on many blades of quality; would it not as easily be as some have pointed out that the G and GG were universally used as marks of quality regardless of who made the blade? Both Germany, Alsace and England used the word Warranted before proved, etc came along. Osborn may be one to have demonstrating a unified proofing system and as such the G and GG might denote proofing but again not necessarily only on his blades. With the use of G already explained to be in use in Germany..... wait we're going in a circle again

Cheers
GC

Bryce · 6th June 2018, 09:42 PM

G'day GC,

Just so I am clear, is your Osborn marked eagle pommel sword actually marked Osborn, or is it just in the style of Osborn?

Cheers,
Bryce

Hotspur · 6th June 2018, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day GC,

Just so I am clear, is your Osborn marked eagle pommel sword actually marked Osborn, or is it just in the style of Osborn?

Cheers,
Bryce

A clearly/fine cast in the style of the book example that is hilt marked to Osborn. I think you will find no other example that is.

Cheers
GC

Hotspur · 6th June 2018, 11:34 PM

Quote:

G'day Guys, As all Osborn marked swords appear to have a G stamp, but some Osborn and Gunby swords do not, the most likely explanation is that at some point Osborn and Gunby stopped using the G stamp. I would like to try and narrow down what date this may have been. If anyone has a dateable Osborn and Gunby officer's sword, could you please check it for a G stamp on the ricasso and post the results here. Cheers, Bryce

The above from your explorations elsewhere. Could it be that Osborn stopped marking a G or GG to avoid confusion with others using it?

Fwiw, my frosty cast steel looking eagle pommel sword with a Woolley Deakin & Co marked blade, I don't necessarily attribute to their furbishing. My Thurkle eagle pommel undeniably the work of Thurkle's shops but not marked to them. My Ames eagle pommel undeniable that shop's work but entirely unmarked as to the shop, while the blade etch obviously theirs.

The b&g Osborn I referenced in a previous post is not clearly marked to Osborn, yet the blade artistry and the eagle form attributed to Osborn, indeed, your bright etched sword you posted above does mirror the federal eagle on the blade quite precisely. Do we then say that eagle may well not have been furbished by Osborn's shops?

I honestly have little else to offer the quest (or proof) you are undertaking. I do read that you are trying carefully not to promote the fallacy of an undistributed middle and find that admirable but I have been often confounded when finding fresh information.

Best
GC

Here is my plain Jane unmarked Osborn with a 12 on the ricasso

6th June 2018, 06:20 AM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Thanks for the attachment. It might hold more water as to Osborn being responsible for the G stamp if it was mentioned in the attached article. I am reminded of a 14th century edict regarding armour and arms quality with the inent of disallowing Flemish goods to favor England production but with the demand quality be met. At the same time, barrels of blades entering London and being dispersed throughout Britain to be furbished in country. I see no proof of all Osborn officer sword blades (and why would it be only officer's blades?) bearing the G stamp. Nor the mark exclusive to his wares (you do make a point he may be supplying others). The German resident not mentioned in that article I have to assume was either JJ Runkel (who was called out for his German blades) or the S&K agent. Whomever it was, was still selling blades to English furbishers and trade flourishing despite this report. 1808 is a rather late date, in regard to several of the patterns that turn up with the G stamp and not marked to Osborn. If the G stamp is to be assumed to exclusive to blades made through his production, where is the smoking gun? Why a G? Why were some marked GG? There might be a better argument that blister/shear steel blades were phasing out as cast steel blades were coming in. Despite this report attached that Osborn was in fact producing these blades, I'd be interested in seeing more about his mills and foundries (producing thousands of blades). I had spent some time years ago looking at steel production and the changes in ownership and or control of sword blade production. Yet, the G mark seems reclusive as to why the stamp was appearing. Anyway, the Bolton I just showed has that similar bright etch in a timeline some might expect quite early for such work, when most of it's contemporaries are blue&gilt. Should we then assume that Bolton was always working with Osborn and Osborn not just producing the blades but etching them as well? One thing I have noticed over the span of a decade or so is a rather individual type/style of b&g needle etching that does not mimic the Osborn blade decorations and so also true of those two bright etched blades shown in this thread. If you find the time, browse my photo archive linked above and view all the Bates/Bolton blades and the Osborn blades. Note the differences in needle etching. Similar, but at the same time quite dissimilar. Both turning up with G stamps at times. You might seek out and hail Richard Dellar, as a recently published author regarding British cavalry swords. I don't own the title, as a tangent I have not entirely followed but I do view a lot of US targeted British made swords. Cheers GC In addendum, I have lost my notes on steel production, as I had stored them on the British History Online site. That shelf was wiped clean when they rebuilt their site http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

6th June 2018, 07:44 AM	#3
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	G'Day GC, At this stage I have no idea why Osborn marked some blades with 1,2 or even 4 G's. If you have any theories I am all ears. As to whether or not all Osborn marked officer's blades have a G stamp I can say that every one in my collection does, every one in Richard Dellar's collection does, every one in several other collections does and every one I have come across on the internet with a clear shot of the ricasso does. The majority (possibly all?) Osborn and Gunby marked swords do as well. Originally I thought that Osborn and Gunby stopped marking blades with a G stamp at some stage. Now I am not so sure. The G stamps can be very difficult to spot even on a sword without langets. Can I be sure that 100% of Osborn marked swords have a G stamp? The answer is no, hence the appeal for other collectors to check their swords for G stamps as well. What I am confident of is that the vast majority, (if not all) of Osborn marked officer's swords have one. I am less confident about Osborn's troopers swords as I don't have any in my collection. Richard Dellar has one and he says it doesn't have a stamp. The problem is that troopers' swords are less common in our collections and most have langets. These G stamps can be very difficult to spot behind langets. With several of my own swords I have been convinced they didn't have stamps, only to have another harder look and discover they do have G stamps. Cheers, Bryce

6th June 2018, 08:42 AM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	My Osborn eagle pommel sword has a 12 stamp Most Osborn eagle pommel swords (decorated or not) do not seem to display a G stamp and as many but a few) Bolton eagle pommels do seem to surface with the G stamp. If you have already made up your mind and have run this by Dellar, I can only but continue to be unconvinced. It may take dismantling all these swords we have to look at tang marks as well. In the files I had linked and mentioned again is an example of the same etch pattern of your bright sword but done in b&g (a set with a prefix of ful in that Osborn folder). Look closely at the US eagles displayed and the subtle differences in etches, both bright and b&g needlework. You'll see the example of the b&g Osborn that mirrors your bright etch and if you bother looking at my Bolton folder, you will see many Bolton examples that mirrors that Bolton I posted with the bright etch. Again, my point that there does not seem to have been a single source of a blade supply and both (at times) appearing with G stamps. How much has Dellar delved into cutlers row in Birmingham and how many mills and foundries has he indexed? Curious minds and all that. To me, if a blade is unmarked as to a retailer or known maker, I can only go by trends of the components and blade decorations. It is not just Wells and Upson, nor Spies and Wolfe in the US but continued mysteries such as the John Salter generations and distributions. Osborn styled swords thought to be originating with Osborn and sold through all on that brief list. Also in my brief two decades of sword interests, as soon as I feel I have reached the pinnacle of understanding about a subject, more is surely to come. Let's see a complete history of Osborn's works to flesh out what is a nice bit of news copy but hardly conclusive (to me) that his smithys were producing those supposed thousands and that his work was above all others. Surely such information would be atop the cream of Birmingham history. As contrary as I may seem, I appreciate your thoughts and additional notes. If the G was not necessarily an Osborn specific trait but found on many blades of quality; would it not as easily be as some have pointed out that the G and GG were universally used as marks of quality regardless of who made the blade? Both Germany, Alsace and England used the word Warranted before proved, etc came along. Osborn may be one to have demonstrating a unified proofing system and as such the G and GG might denote proofing but again not necessarily only on his blades. With the use of G already explained to be in use in Germany..... wait we're going in a circle again Cheers GC

6th June 2018, 09:42 PM	#5
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	G'day GC, Just so I am clear, is your Osborn marked eagle pommel sword actually marked Osborn, or is it just in the style of Osborn? Cheers, Bryce