First posting/ Opinion asked, Possibly Execution tool?

Newbie Grandpa · 15th February 2018, 06:54 PM

Got this as an payment, for an work I have made for this estate, since last summer ( 2017 )
Hope to gain some info.
What I assume, from the little info I got; German speaking / mid European origin, propably mid to late 18th century item.
Have been originally intended to be instrument of person who has carried out death penalty, and propably used, because large amount of material has been lost, due repolishing atleat one side of the blade.
According family tradition, item has been at private? Museum at some where at Eastern Europe, until around 1990? when purchased,
Prior to that ( early 20th? century ) used to be at wall of local town hall / hall of Justice, at town where it was purchased.
I have show it at two local people, who said both that is is fantasy piece, another said that it is for theatre or play acting purposies, but both were willing to pay some nominal sum of it.
My main question is huge conflight of timing. Late owner thinking it is 18th
century and gun specialist saying that it is brand new chinese or 100 years old theatre propt

David R · 15th February 2018, 11:20 PM

Sword of Justice. Might be an executioners sword, but equally likely a reproduction, or a processional sword. My money would be on it being a municipal processional sword, and a damn nice thing to have.

shayde78 · 16th February 2018, 01:51 AM

Nice item.
I would NOT sell for a "nominal" price (unless selling to me! Lol).

fernando · 16th February 2018, 12:02 PM

Welcome to the forum, Newbie Grandpa

.
Could you get a set of more accurate pictures ? Maybe that would help to define whther this sword is authentic or a modern replica.
And remember, not money talk in here

Newbie Grandpa · 16th February 2018, 06:03 PM

Here few from yesterday.

Just learn, how to compress images

Newbie Grandpa · 17th February 2018, 12:18 PM

Some close ups from different angle, of holding end

Newbie Grandpa · 17th February 2018, 12:22 PM

Hope that these give You some additional clues concerning age of the item

All suggestion, to what I should point to My camera, greatly appreciated

fernando · 17th February 2018, 06:31 PM

So Gentlemen, what do you think ?
... A well made replica ? Consider the steel texture.

.

mariusgmioc · 17th February 2018, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

So Gentlemen, what do you think ?
... A well made replica ? Consider the steel texture.
.

Not to my eyes.

Most likely a 19 century piece... if not earlier. My guess...

Newbie Grandpa · 18th February 2018, 06:57 AM

Top of the Pommel? ( is that is the correct word )

Lee · 18th February 2018, 01:06 PM

I suspect this may indeed be an antique that has been aggressively cleaned and so I would not pass it along anywhere for just a 'nominal' amount. Eighteenth / nineteenth century seem reasonable as noted by others above. The steel is a little too defect free to try and argue for much earlier, but the Turk's head of the grip appears very well done and with wear and patina in the seams.

In my very early collecting days I had a rather renowned gun dealer denounce an espada ancha I had acquired as a modern made-up piece and my own general library book level research seemed to confirm this. Fortunately I kept it as years later - in the same dealer's shop! - I found a book that made clear that it was the real deal and something to keep.

broadaxe · 26th February 2018, 01:02 PM

A general statement: lots of these have, surprisingly, popped out in the market along the last 3-2 years. I had a chance to examine two different swords firsthand and I don't have a definitive decision. They appear well made, good weight & balance, nice patina. But the large relative amount of them makes me wonder.

Those of you who sign with Facebook or Google+ may want to read my earlier article on such sword, here (I have some other papers there):
https://www.academia.edu/26655980/A_...Justice_indeed

Helleri · 1st March 2018, 09:31 PM

Is the pommel threaded on (looks peened but maybe not); And if so can we get pics of the threading?

Newbie Grandpa · 2nd March 2018, 03:44 PM

I dont dare try try to take it to parts, because I think that " grip " or hadle part would fell apart + I dont know how to do it. Maybe with large blumbers tools.

Anyway , here is some photos of end part. I suppose that it is not thread, or at least end part some way "feels" like it would be forged or hammered, to attach end of blade to it. I could not see if tiny coffee bean side last round part is part of pommel, or separate part

Helleri · 3rd March 2018, 01:24 AM

Doesn't really look like that pommel is peened on. Looks more capped to me. Like the actual tang of the blade is peened under it. That's some fairly decent wire work as well on the handle. Balded as well which likely means it was handled a lot in my estimation.

corrado26 · 3rd March 2018, 06:29 PM

During a spring auction 2015 of a German auction house a sword of justice in the style of 17th/18th century has been sold. The hilt of it is in my eyes very similar to the piece in question.
corrado26

15th February 2018, 06:54 PM	#1
Newbie Grandpa Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6	First posting/ Opinion asked, Possibly Execution tool? Got this as an payment, for an work I have made for this estate, since last summer ( 2017 ) Hope to gain some info. What I assume, from the little info I got; German speaking / mid European origin, propably mid to late 18th century item. Have been originally intended to be instrument of person who has carried out death penalty, and propably used, because large amount of material has been lost, due repolishing atleat one side of the blade. According family tradition, item has been at private? Museum at some where at Eastern Europe, until around 1990? when purchased, Prior to that ( early 20th? century ) used to be at wall of local town hall / hall of Justice, at town where it was purchased. I have show it at two local people, who said both that is is fantasy piece, another said that it is for theatre or play acting purposies, but both were willing to pay some nominal sum of it. My main question is huge conflight of timing. Late owner thinking it is 18th century and gun specialist saying that it is brand new chinese or 100 years old theatre propt Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 15th February 2018 at 09:27 PM.

16th February 2018, 06:03 PM	#5
Newbie Grandpa Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6	Will do with in next week. What details I should focus? Here few from yesterday. Just learn, how to compress images Attached Images

17th February 2018, 12:18 PM	#6
Newbie Grandpa Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6	New details 1/3 Some close ups from different angle, of holding end Attached Images

17th February 2018, 12:22 PM	#7
Newbie Grandpa Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6	New details 2/3 Hope that these give You some additional clues concerning age of the item All suggestion, to what I should point to My camera, greatly appreciated Attached Images

17th February 2018, 06:31 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So Gentlemen, what do you think ? ... A well made replica ? Consider the steel texture. . Last edited by fernando; 17th February 2018 at 08:17 PM.

15th February 2018, 11:20 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Sword of Justice. Might be an executioners sword, but equally likely a reproduction, or a processional sword. My money would be on it being a municipal processional sword, and a damn nice thing to have.

16th February 2018, 01:51 AM	#3
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Nice item. I would NOT sell for a "nominal" price (unless selling to me! Lol).

16th February 2018, 12:02 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, Newbie Grandpa . Could you get a set of more accurate pictures ? Maybe that would help to define whther this sword is authentic or a modern replica. And remember, not money talk in here

18th February 2018, 06:57 AM	#10
Newbie Grandpa Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6	Oh, forgot this one Top of the Pommel? ( is that is the correct word ) Attached Images

18th February 2018, 01:06 PM	#11
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	I suspect this may indeed be an antique that has been aggressively cleaned and so I would not pass it along anywhere for just a 'nominal' amount. Eighteenth / nineteenth century seem reasonable as noted by others above. The steel is a little too defect free to try and argue for much earlier, but the Turk's head of the grip appears very well done and with wear and patina in the seams. In my very early collecting days I had a rather renowned gun dealer denounce an espada ancha I had acquired as a modern made-up piece and my own general library book level research seemed to confirm this. Fortunately I kept it as years later - in the same dealer's shop! - I found a book that made clear that it was the real deal and something to keep.

26th February 2018, 01:02 PM	#12
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	A general statement: lots of these have, surprisingly, popped out in the market along the last 3-2 years. I had a chance to examine two different swords firsthand and I don't have a definitive decision. They appear well made, good weight & balance, nice patina. But the large relative amount of them makes me wonder. Those of you who sign with Facebook or Google+ may want to read my earlier article on such sword, here (I have some other papers there): https://www.academia.edu/26655980/A_...Justice_indeed

1st March 2018, 09:31 PM	#13
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Is the pommel threaded on (looks peened but maybe not); And if so can we get pics of the threading? Last edited by Helleri; 2nd March 2018 at 12:03 AM.

2nd March 2018, 03:44 PM	#14
Newbie Grandpa Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 6	Pommel photos I dont dare try try to take it to parts, because I think that " grip " or hadle part would fell apart + I dont know how to do it. Maybe with large blumbers tools. Anyway , here is some photos of end part. I suppose that it is not thread, or at least end part some way "feels" like it would be forged or hammered, to attach end of blade to it. I could not see if tiny coffee bean side last round part is part of pommel, or separate part Attached Images

3rd March 2018, 01:24 AM	#15
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Doesn't really look like that pommel is peened on. Looks more capped to me. Like the actual tang of the blade is peened under it. That's some fairly decent wire work as well on the handle. Balded as well which likely means it was handled a lot in my estimation.

3rd March 2018, 06:29 PM	#16
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,205	During a spring auction 2015 of a German auction house a sword of justice in the style of 17th/18th century has been sold. The hilt of it is in my eyes very similar to the piece in question. corrado26 Attached Images