Another Java kris for identification

Paul B. · 26th January 2018, 07:30 AM

Here is another kris which puzzles me.
Right now I am showing only the sorsoran part to show the ricikan and peksi and hope to find some answers.
It is a slender 9 luk blade anyway.

* Is this a ganjairas blade? Probably so.
* The circular pamor motif in the pejetan area, what does it tell us.
* This is a blade with panji pilis kinatah mas. Not gold paint but some kind of foil (crumbling off a bit).
* The upper wavy ganja part once had goud incrustations as well, from the side I can see a rim?
* Funny repeating greneng of similar kind (cut later?).
* The peksi is smooth, so what does it tell about age? Not to old?

David · 26th January 2018, 04:30 PM

Paul, it's hard for me to assess a keris without seeing not just close photos of parts of the blade, but some good shots of the entire blade, preferably from directly above to avoid distortion of the shape and with the point facing upward.
I suspect this might be a Sumatran keris, but can't be sure.

Paul B. · 26th January 2018, 05:21 PM

Hope this will do.
Nothing in common with a Sumatran blade I suppose.
I can make better / more pics if needed.

David · 26th January 2018, 06:38 PM

Thanks Paul.
Keris are alway best viewed point up when trying to make a proper assessment.

Paul B. · 28th January 2018, 08:11 AM

Hmmm, no one joining in?

David · 28th January 2018, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

Hmmm, no one joining in?

Well Paul, i'll address some of your questions.

* Is this a ganjairas blade? Probably so.
Yes, definitely.

* The circular pamor motif in the pejetan area, what does it tell us.
It's part of the pamor pattern, yes. What do you think it should "tell us"?

* This is a blade with panji pilis kinatah mas. Not gold paint but some kind of foil (crumbling off a bit).

Yes, i have seen this foil application many times, mostly on Sumatran keris which is why my first suggestion was that this could be a Sumatran blade.

* Funny repeating greneng of similar kind (cut later?).
Funny indeed, but i think probably cut originally. It has obviously been worn down some so it is hard to tell what it originally looked like, but from what remains it does not seem to fall into any greneng pattern that would make much sense on a Javanese keris.

* The peksi is smooth, so what does it tell about age? Not to old?
Yes, the pesi is smooth, but it appears to be worn smooth for some reason. While this blade isn't ancient, it does seem to exhibit some legitimate age. But then, some people are very good at faking such things.

Sajen · 28th January 2018, 08:58 PM

Agree with everything David has stated. And I think as well that it is a Sumatran blade. Is there a scabbard with the blade?

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2018, 09:13 PM

Inclined gandhik, long tip, kelap lintah gonjo, improper greneng = Maduro , probably early 20th century.

Definitely gonjo iras.

I would need to handle the blade to comment on the pamor, there are a couple of possibilities and I will not comment on these from photos.

Paul B. · 29th January 2018, 07:05 AM

Confusing thoughts but thanks anyway.
The dress is Solo and the fitting is fine but that should not be conclusive.

A. G. Maisey · 29th January 2018, 07:59 AM

Accept or reject:- its only an opinion, but if you or anybody else has a different opinion, please provide the indicators that incline you to that opinion.

One thing is conclusive:- this blade is most definitely not Surakarta, even though the dress may be. I doubt that the wrongko was made for this blade, it looks like a refit to me. Nice wrongko, old, reasonably high value, but a refit.

Paul B. · 29th January 2018, 01:20 PM

Thanks, observing the blade it is acceptable not to call it a Solo blade (as the parameters don't match) but Javanese in general would be my best vote.
Of course a ganjairas is a feature often seen in Bugis / Sumatran krisses but a kelap lintah on the other hand is not common at all. Aside from that a strong ada-ada is more likely Javanese. Just my view.
PS. The dress is indeed very fine an the kendit is original.

David · 29th January 2018, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

Thanks, observing the blade it is acceptable not to call it a Solo blade (as the parameters don't match) but Javanese in general would be my best vote.
Of course a ganjairas is a feature often seen in Bugis / Sumatran krisses but a kelap lintah on the other hand is not common at all. Aside from that a strong ada-ada is more likely Javanese. Just my view.
PS. The dress is indeed very fine an the kendit is original.

But kelap lintah is not that unusual in Madurese keris which is what Alan suggested as an origin for this blade. After seeing the over all photo and noting, as Alan pointed out, the inwardly inclining gandhik, i am inclined to agree that Madura seems a very good possibility. I have also seen many Madurese keris with a strong ada ada.

The kendit wrongko is indeed beautiful so it is not surprising that someone would choose to adapt it to this blade.

Paul B. · 29th January 2018, 04:49 PM

Madura is quite acceptable I admit

Gustav · 30th January 2018, 02:39 PM

Actually Kelap Lintah (in combination with inclined Gandhik) and Ada2 are not unusual on South-Sumatran Keris, also Gonjo Iras.

The type of gold application on Gandhik and Gonjo seen here is typical for Palembang blades, and Palembang imitated many styles bladewise.

By the way note some likeness to the Keris Taming Sari (not getting involved in guessing about its age and provenance).

There is some discrepancy with the wear of Jenggot and Greneng, and at least two possibilities to explain it.

Overall, if there would be a possibility for me to buy such Keris, especially with only pictures available, I would never do it - too many question marks and daring details here.

26th January 2018, 07:30 AM	#1
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Another Java kris for identification Here is another kris which puzzles me. Right now I am showing only the sorsoran part to show the ricikan and peksi and hope to find some answers. It is a slender 9 luk blade anyway. * Is this a ganjairas blade? Probably so. * The circular pamor motif in the pejetan area, what does it tell us. * This is a blade with panji pilis kinatah mas. Not gold paint but some kind of foil (crumbling off a bit). * The upper wavy ganja part once had goud incrustations as well, from the side I can see a rim? * Funny repeating greneng of similar kind (cut later?). * The peksi is smooth, so what does it tell about age? Not to old? Attached Images

26th January 2018, 05:21 PM	#3
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Hope this will do. Nothing in common with a Sumatran blade I suppose. I can make better / more pics if needed. Attached Images

26th January 2018, 06:38 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Thanks Paul. Keris are alway best viewed point up when trying to make a proper assessment. Attached Images

29th January 2018, 07:05 AM	#9
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Confusing thoughts but thanks anyway. The dress is Solo and the fitting is fine but that should not be conclusive. Attached Images

26th January 2018, 04:30 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,126	Paul, it's hard for me to assess a keris without seeing not just close photos of parts of the blade, but some good shots of the entire blade, preferably from directly above to avoid distortion of the shape and with the point facing upward. I suspect this might be a Sumatran keris, but can't be sure.

28th January 2018, 08:11 AM	#5
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Hmmm, no one joining in?

28th January 2018, 08:58 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Agree with everything David has stated. And I think as well that it is a Sumatran blade. Is there a scabbard with the blade? Regards, Detlef

28th January 2018, 09:13 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,895	Inclined gandhik, long tip, kelap lintah gonjo, improper greneng = Maduro , probably early 20th century. Definitely gonjo iras. I would need to handle the blade to comment on the pamor, there are a couple of possibilities and I will not comment on these from photos.

29th January 2018, 07:59 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,895	Accept or reject:- its only an opinion, but if you or anybody else has a different opinion, please provide the indicators that incline you to that opinion. One thing is conclusive:- this blade is most definitely not Surakarta, even though the dress may be. I doubt that the wrongko was made for this blade, it looks like a refit to me. Nice wrongko, old, reasonably high value, but a refit.

29th January 2018, 01:20 PM	#11
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Thanks, observing the blade it is acceptable not to call it a Solo blade (as the parameters don't match) but Javanese in general would be my best vote. Of course a ganjairas is a feature often seen in Bugis / Sumatran krisses but a kelap lintah on the other hand is not common at all. Aside from that a strong ada-ada is more likely Javanese. Just my view. PS. The dress is indeed very fine an the kendit is original.

29th January 2018, 04:49 PM	#13
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Madura is quite acceptable I admit

30th January 2018, 02:39 PM	#14
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Actually Kelap Lintah (in combination with inclined Gandhik) and Ada2 are not unusual on South-Sumatran Keris, also Gonjo Iras. The type of gold application on Gandhik and Gonjo seen here is typical for Palembang blades, and Palembang imitated many styles bladewise. By the way note some likeness to the Keris Taming Sari (not getting involved in guessing about its age and provenance). There is some discrepancy with the wear of Jenggot and Greneng, and at least two possibilities to explain it. Overall, if there would be a possibility for me to buy such Keris, especially with only pictures available, I would never do it - too many question marks and daring details here.