Spanish sword

[Victrix]

I would be grateful for any comments on this sword which looks like a Spanish espada de conchas although it was found in Italy. The sword’s overall length is 108cm, with the blade 91,5cm long and 2.5cm wide at the forte. The grip is covered in brown leather. The S-shaped quillons and knuckle guard have characteristic trumpet like ends, which is repeated on the pinhead shaped pommel. Both sides of the ricasso are stamped with a cartouche containing what appears to be a fleur-de-lis under a crown, which is supposedly the mark of Juan Martinez of Toledo. The sword is fairly plain but has a decorated guarda de polvo at the bottom of the conchas. The blade is fairly wide and flexible, with a rounded tip. It has a distinctive central fuller. Could it be a Solingen copy of a Toledo blade?

[Hotspur]

Some previous discussion with more photos
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...-Spanish-sword

Cheers

GC

[Victrix]

Grateful for any constructive comments in this forum regarding this sword. Anyone recognize the style, time period, marks, etc?

[fernando]

Hello Victrix,
Let us see that comments on your sword are technicaly constructive as you wish. However be sure that members participation yes, is certainly constructive.
I gather that you know for yourself that Juan Martinez has no longer lived in the time this sword was produced. So the mark in the ricasso is either from a different smith or a simulation; or even a Toledo (TO) mark applied by German smiths, from where your blade might have come.
This 18th century Cavalry sword model, traditionally called Boca de Caballo, basically so due to its horse mouth aspect, has a comprehensive description in the following article:
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf

By the way, you certainly have a copy of the Palomares Nomina; a work on the marks and names of Toledo sword smiths ...

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[Victrix]

Many thanks for that, Fernando. I guess I was just curious if someone recognized the distinctive trumpet ends on the quillon and the pommel head? Or the distinctive pin head shaped pommel, or the fuller? I believe Naples and Milan were part of the Spanish crown in old days. Also the concha shell guard on one side seems quite large compared to similar swords. The blade could be older than the sword, but the fuller looks slightly Germanic to me I must admit. I’m curious about the rounded tip which makes it unlikely that this sword was used as a rapier although the tip is quite flexible like a spring rather than rigid. So many questions in my mind.

Many thanks for the article on the Spanish swords. I will try to run it through the google translator.

[Victrix]

Same, but different?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Same, but different?

Both atypical, in any case. The example you selected from Calvó's work is mentioned as having details of extreme sumptuosity, brass guardapolvo engraved with trophees and all. Blade with faded inscription, with signs of being German.
Military swords of this model would have more simple features, with Royal initials in the blade.
On the other hand, your example would also be civilian, with its guardapolvo. You will also notice that its quillons have a much broader S shape. Could it be that neither hilt nor blade are Spanish ? .
And by the way, none of these swords have rapier features; why should they have ?

[Victrix]

The style looks very Spanish to me, but the sword on the left might be slightly older (more bold curves)? The missing link to the Pappenheimer??

[Victrix]

Spotted a sword in a pic (see below) with a similar hilt to mine. Third sword from the left. Picture taken in Alcazar de Segovia de los Reyes de Castilla.

[fernando]

Is it my eyes or your hilt features (an attempt for) a 'rompe puntas' (sword point breaker) ?.´



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[Jim McDougall]

Brilliantly noted Fernando! a rompepuntas is completely atypical on a bilbo.
Perhaps something in the transitional netherworld?

[fernando]

Only while the 'real' rompe puntas has a plausible shape, formed around the traditional cup bowl, Victrix example bordering the accute angle shell guard doesnt seem so realistic; more assumably decorative ?
Don't beat me too hard but ... maybe not Spanish ? .



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[Victrix]

Yes probably more decorative. As stated in the first post, the sword was purchased from Italy so Naples (Spanish at the time) might be a reasonable assumption. At least two of the swords from the castle in Segovia have similar decorations on the shell. So does the sword below.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems that vestigial presence of certain elements on sword hilts is commonly found especially in transitional situations as forms evolved. Case in point of course are the distinct pas d'ane (a notably disputed term) rings in the familiar small sword hilts later in the 18th century. By this time their use had become more 'decorative' and their common everyday wear had all but waned, and their use not as likely. Thus the familiar 'rings devolved from their pragmatic purpose.

There seems to have of course been notable cross diffusion of sword forms and elements between Spain and Italy, of course given the provincial status of these regions in Italy as Victrix notes, It is of course well known that remarkable numbers of the 'Spanish' cup hilt were actually with Italian made hilts.
With all the traffic of arms, influences and elements of the weapons back and forth it does not seem unusual that an example of the notably Spanish form ubiquitous there and in Spanish colonies would turn up indeed in North Italy, just as Fernando has suggested.

It seems to me that this sword, clearly of the 'bilbo' (familiarly 'boca de caballo') generic, might will have been produced in Italy using either a Spanish blade, or as commonly the case one using spurious markings. There are cases, though not as common, of Spanish blades occurring in Italian contexts.

While the rompepuntas on this sword is clearly a decorative embellishment which is virtually never present on most Spanish 'bilbo' type swords, perhaps this example was fashioned with the notable feature from the long favored cup hilt with that traditional recognition. The cup hilt is of course known to have remained in favor as THE chosen Spanish sword long after other lighter forms (small swords) were becoming popular.

While I would typically think of the cup hilt as a fencing/dueling choice and the 'bilbo' as more of an arming sword more for typical combat, it seems I have heard from some well versed in fencing note that sometimes these bilbos are often well balanced and light enough to effectively carry out the scheduled moves prescribed in some degree. Clearly this would not likely be 'textbook' application, but a swordsman recalling the tenets of 'destreza' would inherently use a sword accordingly. If nothing else, the 'rompepuntas' on these examples of bilbo may be no more than a wistful nod to the beloved Spanish cuphilt. The examples shown by Victrix indicate this is hardly a 'one off' case.

Possibly this might have some tenuous connection in explaining the unusual character of this example?

[Victrix]

The blade looks very German, so I suspect a Solingen made one with a questionable Juan Martinez cartouche mark on the ricasso. From what I understand the bigger the shell guard and pommel, the older the sword. Although I cannot rule out that this could just signs of provincial origins. I also note that my sword arguably looks like a pure thoroughbred compared to many of the swords hanging in the picture from Segovia castle.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... I also note that my sword arguably looks like a pure thoroughbred compared to many of the swords hanging in the picture from Segovia castle. ...

Still i see no reason for yours not to look so good as those; no matter their thoroughbred .


... And by the way, the Alcazar of Segovia is one in Spain i have never visited. This is a postcard sent by my daughter in 1999.



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[Victrix]

Wow that looks like my kind of place! The helmets on the left look quite interesting. Almost like those Roman gladiator helmets. So many places to see… I hope to finally make it to Graz to see the armoury there soon in the next few months. Fingers crossed.