Shotley Bridge swordmakers

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th November 2017, 07:14 AM

In a further note at http://www.metalworkingworldmagazine...metal-history/

Quote"The first industrial plant of which we have certain news was used in 1615, to obtain lead and tin plates. Others followed, driven by animal or hydraulic force. Due to the increased possibility of obtaining ferrous material, the cold rolling of steel is simultaneously started. In 1682 a cold rolling mill of notable sizes was present in Newcastle in England. The first detailed description dates back to few years later; it is a plant in Galles (presumeably Wales)that processed 700 mm-long bars with 100 mm width, which could obtain sheets with 1500×700 mm sizes, it is the first certain witness of the steel rolling process to produce sheet metal, the driving force was provided by water wheels . Galles will remain the main European producer of thin sheets until the end of 1700. In the eighteenth century they also started rolling more complex shapes: rounds, squares, rails, double-T beams etc. It is essential to observe how the rolling complies with the demands of that age producing the requested materials: in 1600 lead sheets for the roof covers were highly requested and this possibility is then developed, at the end of 1700, in the middle of the industrial revolution, they needed rails and semi-finished steel products that therefore the rolling promptly satisfies."Unquote.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th November 2017, 09:03 AM

An interesting vignette exists although on knife making at Solingen at http://www.worldknives.com/info/knif...knives-68.html

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th November 2017, 01:05 PM

We are dealing with hollow ground swords which by cross section are triangular. For a general description please see Matt Easton on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMd3G5x6CIc

Whilst this is not exactly Colichemarde it gives a good basis for comparison and on the development of the style.

Hotspur · 15th November 2017, 01:17 PM

I still await the dashboard Matt Easton led bobble head

Matt will offer a video for just about anything he happens to read. I suppose he is not a bad starting point but I find far too many are depending upon video and Wikipedia for their informational needs instead of looking at primary sources (upon which Matt is more than willing to promote). The slippery slope is the interested stopping there, after their drive through experience in learning.

Cheers

GC

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th November 2017, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

I still await the dashboard Matt Easton led bobble head

Matt will offer a video for just about anything he happens to read. I suppose he is not a bad starting point but I find far too many are depending upon video and Wikipedia for their informational needs instead of looking at primary sources (upon which Matt is more than willing to promote). The slippery slope is the interested stopping there, after their drive through experience in learning.

Cheers

GC

Salaams Hotspur, Great post thanks ~ As a university teacher I can assure you of the value of a broad cross section of referencing as you will deduce by looking at any of my threads... It is important to include Forum Library references as well as Web references and of course book quotes, photographs, professional papers, maps and artwork. Tap dancing on the table is allowed if it gets the students attention!!

I have many items of Arabian antiquity including weapons placed by friends at Durham University UK (Antiquities Department) and you should see their student tear into their course work ...They are like scientific detectives using every chemical and testing gizmo invented and then they get down to the books ...They probe, question, analyze and consider every aspect of an artifact and their report ...a sort of structured mega thread are stunningly well done. The most recent test is currently running and the student has to produce a video presentation on an ancient Afgan Ewer !!

Some of the webs historical battles are fantastic, well thought out and accurate productions ~ and although Matt comes in for a fair bit of leg pulling his lectures are often quite well done for an amateur and anyway no one is saying you have to watch it !

The video is a picture worth a thousand words on steroids!

Modern technology in the classroom is world apart from chalk boards (though these too have their place) and the modern lecturer has a broad base of high tech to support lessons.

Wiki is an incredible resource which is captivating material faster than ever and for example within a few years every book on this earth will be on tap on the web and free!...Ignoring that would be slightly odd.

Having said that I respect those who stick by more conventional structures but it should be noted that we are in fact the same sort of data base gathering machine as Wiki... That is how our excellent Library gathers details. We are an information gathering system in precisely the same way as Wiki.

Of course being a new thing Wiki gets blasted from all sides as did the motor car and aeroplane ! It seems all right to be somewhat scornful of the Web as fair game but who looks to our own system for improved ideas...?

Apple has a group of scientists in their new inventions division and are experimenting with new tech all the time...When did Forum bring on a new concept or structure like automatic Library referencing on every new thread? Its only an tiny algorithm...

Finally I refer to my mobile device memo on which I wrote the other day.."The quickened pace of technology requires a brighter more fluid response from a tech savvy audience using innovative, nimble, bright and clever research tools at their instant finger tips".

Hotspur · 15th November 2017, 05:43 PM

I still think Matt could sell thousands of bobble heads.

I see the videos and wikis as a place for the interested to begin an understanding but too few are going beyond them.

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2017, 07:55 PM

Not wishing to defer this outstanding discussion from the intriguing topic of these English sword makers to the more mundane topic of learning mediums, I simply agree, Wiki and videos along with many other developing technological advances are very much advancing our resources.

Even in the old days in my researching, no papyrus jokes!!!

, as I pored through book after book, the cites and referenced notes were prompts for me to check those cited sources further for context and additional information.
It is no different with Wikipedia or any other medium, and it is quite frankly more expedient to have such resources at ones fingertips than interlibrary loan or searching for books by mail or old book stores.

I agree, too many fall short of further research, as evidenced here many times by participants who do not read previous posts or do not use the easily accessed search function and resources here at hand. It is a matter of personal preference, and choice. People have quite varied ajendas, and if there is too much depth, or not enough, on a topic, the choice is to move past it and to material more to their own level of interest.

Back to the subject at hand, the use of machinery, Sir Richard Burton visited Solingen around 1875, "...the city had not yet been touched by the Industrial Revolution", and he noted 'the hammering and forging are utterly ignorant of progress', revealing his own contempt for the modern affectations of machines.

He notes that tempering is done in water 'as usual' rather than oil.
It was noted that the steam engine had led to many new machines, but despite dislike of the machines by bladesmiths, there was no denial of the opportunities afforded for mass production.

In 1847.....a mechanism for ROLLING BLADES from long strips of steel was introduced, a "painful blow for the old masters".

-"By The Sword", Richard Cohen, 2003, p.119 ('The Great Swordmakers).

It seems odd that the most influential blade making center in the world apparently relied on tried and true old traditional anvil hammering methods this late in time, yet in England this great attention to rolling mills was at hand in the 17th century.

urbanspaceman · 15th November 2017, 08:05 PM

Thank-you Gentlemen, an abundance of pertinent information.

Initially, let me flag the info regarding lead rolling mills, as Vintner was descended from a family of lead mining and processing engineers.

Incidentally, many have posited that Vintner was German, but I can find no trace – anywhere, anytime – of that name being present in Germany (if anybody can, then I will be well pleased); however, I can find Vinton used commonly in Sweden and occasionally in Scandinavia generally, hence my suggestion that he was probably Swedish. The 'Ingenious Artisans' that Queen Elizabeth instructed to 'find, mine and process metals countrywide' were not from Germany alone.

Secondly, and just as a side issue: I don't know how many of you have ever witnessed white-hot sheet-metal coming out of a rolling-mill ? It is very scary, especially if you are standing on one of those gantries near the coiling machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuuP8L-WppI).
However, in order to roll the shape of a Biscayne blade (are we going to call it that now?) you do-not/cannot use speed, it has to be done slowly with a varied degree of pressure; at least if you are using the machine that I conceived yesterday, which has three round edged wheels (one wider than the other two) that are of varying width around the circumference (which equals the length of the blade) and all three pointing into a central gap through which the hot metal rod is inserted then extruded; the wheels are mounted on axles that are spring loaded and simultaneously turned slowly by hand.
A picture is worth a thousand words, I know, but I'm sure you will understand what I am getting at if you are of a mechanical mind-set.

Incidentally, and apropos of Mat's video: he talks about 15th C. hollow blades, which are a revelation to me; does anyone have any information on these swords?

Also, he keeps referring to 'Hollow Ground' which is a terminology that unfortunately seems to predominate and is probably responsible for the notion that the 'Machine' was a grinding machine and not a rolling mill – of sorts. Perhaps those 15th C. blades were hand ground; I suspect it is more likely they were beaten into shape on an anvil former.

But…

In regard to this particular thread I have to say that the Shotley Bridge story may never be written with a veracity cast in stone, as there is constantly emerging pertinent material - when you go looking, that can potentially turn all of the collected written word on its head. For example, apart from chiselling Shotley Bridge or stamping the crossed swords or bridge symbol, I don't know how to establish – one way or the other at this present moment – that SB, and in particular Oley, eventually used the bushy tailed fox; or, for that matter, if they ever used the Passau wolf – or, if anyone outside of Germany ever used the Passau wolf; rather than us buying imported blades already stamped.

All I can do is find out as much as I can and sometimes best guess when accuracy is not mandatory: as with Vinting being Swedish not German, for example. How much effort needs to be put into establishing that as a cast-iron fact? Unlike the bushy tailed fox, how much does it ultimately matter?

Establishing what are the subjects demanding hard facts is, in itself, a demanding, and open to question, endeavour. For example:
Have we reached a point where we can accept that the principle shaping of a hollow blade was not by grinding wheel but by rolling or hammering?
Have we reached a point where we can accept that Shotley Bridge did not employ any machine for producing quantities of hollow blades? Or that they ever actually produced such blades?
Could we accept that doing so may never have been their intention when they brought the nineteen families over?
Instead, that those families arrived to deal with huge demands for battle-field blades from the Jacobites et al, and the hollow-blade project remained as a politically necessary subterfuge by the original syndicate, and then a financially expedient coverall by the South Sea Company?
And on and on… Isn't this fun?!

15th November 2017, 08:05 PM	#8
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 522	Cabbages and Kings Thank-you Gentlemen, an abundance of pertinent information. Initially, let me flag the info regarding lead rolling mills, as Vintner was descended from a family of lead mining and processing engineers. Incidentally, many have posited that Vintner was German, but I can find no trace – anywhere, anytime – of that name being present in Germany (if anybody can, then I will be well pleased); however, I can find Vinton used commonly in Sweden and occasionally in Scandinavia generally, hence my suggestion that he was probably Swedish. The 'Ingenious Artisans' that Queen Elizabeth instructed to 'find, mine and process metals countrywide' were not from Germany alone. Secondly, and just as a side issue: I don't know how many of you have ever witnessed white-hot sheet-metal coming out of a rolling-mill ? It is very scary, especially if you are standing on one of those gantries near the coiling machine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuuP8L-WppI). However, in order to roll the shape of a Biscayne blade (are we going to call it that now?) you do-not/cannot use speed, it has to be done slowly with a varied degree of pressure; at least if you are using the machine that I conceived yesterday, which has three round edged wheels (one wider than the other two) that are of varying width around the circumference (which equals the length of the blade) and all three pointing into a central gap through which the hot metal rod is inserted then extruded; the wheels are mounted on axles that are spring loaded and simultaneously turned slowly by hand. A picture is worth a thousand words, I know, but I'm sure you will understand what I am getting at if you are of a mechanical mind-set. Incidentally, and apropos of Mat's video: he talks about 15th C. hollow blades, which are a revelation to me; does anyone have any information on these swords? Also, he keeps referring to 'Hollow Ground' which is a terminology that unfortunately seems to predominate and is probably responsible for the notion that the 'Machine' was a grinding machine and not a rolling mill – of sorts. Perhaps those 15th C. blades were hand ground; I suspect it is more likely they were beaten into shape on an anvil former. But… In regard to this particular thread I have to say that the Shotley Bridge story may never be written with a veracity cast in stone, as there is constantly emerging pertinent material - when you go looking, that can potentially turn all of the collected written word on its head. For example, apart from chiselling Shotley Bridge or stamping the crossed swords or bridge symbol, I don't know how to establish – one way or the other at this present moment – that SB, and in particular Oley, eventually used the bushy tailed fox; or, for that matter, if they ever used the Passau wolf – or, if anyone outside of Germany ever used the Passau wolf; rather than us buying imported blades already stamped. All I can do is find out as much as I can and sometimes best guess when accuracy is not mandatory: as with Vinting being Swedish not German, for example. How much effort needs to be put into establishing that as a cast-iron fact? Unlike the bushy tailed fox, how much does it ultimately matter? Establishing what are the subjects demanding hard facts is, in itself, a demanding, and open to question, endeavour. For example: Have we reached a point where we can accept that the principle shaping of a hollow blade was not by grinding wheel but by rolling or hammering? Have we reached a point where we can accept that Shotley Bridge did not employ any machine for producing quantities of hollow blades? Or that they ever actually produced such blades? Could we accept that doing so may never have been their intention when they brought the nineteen families over? Instead, that those families arrived to deal with huge demands for battle-field blades from the Jacobites et al, and the hollow-blade project remained as a politically necessary subterfuge by the original syndicate, and then a financially expedient coverall by the South Sea Company? And on and on… Isn't this fun?!

15th November 2017, 07:14 AM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	In a further note at http://www.metalworkingworldmagazine...metal-history/ Quote"The first industrial plant of which we have certain news was used in 1615, to obtain lead and tin plates. Others followed, driven by animal or hydraulic force. Due to the increased possibility of obtaining ferrous material, the cold rolling of steel is simultaneously started. In 1682 a cold rolling mill of notable sizes was present in Newcastle in England. The first detailed description dates back to few years later; it is a plant in Galles (presumeably Wales)that processed 700 mm-long bars with 100 mm width, which could obtain sheets with 1500×700 mm sizes, it is the first certain witness of the steel rolling process to produce sheet metal, the driving force was provided by water wheels . Galles will remain the main European producer of thin sheets until the end of 1700. In the eighteenth century they also started rolling more complex shapes: rounds, squares, rails, double-T beams etc. It is essential to observe how the rolling complies with the demands of that age producing the requested materials: in 1600 lead sheets for the roof covers were highly requested and this possibility is then developed, at the end of 1700, in the middle of the industrial revolution, they needed rails and semi-finished steel products that therefore the rolling promptly satisfies."Unquote.

15th November 2017, 09:03 AM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	An interesting vignette exists although on knife making at Solingen at http://www.worldknives.com/info/knif...knives-68.html

15th November 2017, 01:05 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	We are dealing with hollow ground swords which by cross section are triangular. For a general description please see Matt Easton on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMd3G5x6CIc Whilst this is not exactly Colichemarde it gives a good basis for comparison and on the development of the style.

15th November 2017, 01:17 PM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 494	I still await the dashboard Matt Easton led bobble head Matt will offer a video for just about anything he happens to read. I suppose he is not a bad starting point but I find far too many are depending upon video and Wikipedia for their informational needs instead of looking at primary sources (upon which Matt is more than willing to promote). The slippery slope is the interested stopping there, after their drive through experience in learning. Cheers GC

15th November 2017, 05:43 PM	#6
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 494	I still think Matt could sell thousands of bobble heads. I see the videos and wikis as a place for the interested to begin an understanding but too few are going beyond them. Cheers GC

15th November 2017, 07:55 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,837	Not wishing to defer this outstanding discussion from the intriguing topic of these English sword makers to the more mundane topic of learning mediums, I simply agree, Wiki and videos along with many other developing technological advances are very much advancing our resources. Even in the old days in my researching, no papyrus jokes!!! , as I pored through book after book, the cites and referenced notes were prompts for me to check those cited sources further for context and additional information. It is no different with Wikipedia or any other medium, and it is quite frankly more expedient to have such resources at ones fingertips than interlibrary loan or searching for books by mail or old book stores. I agree, too many fall short of further research, as evidenced here many times by participants who do not read previous posts or do not use the easily accessed search function and resources here at hand. It is a matter of personal preference, and choice. People have quite varied ajendas, and if there is too much depth, or not enough, on a topic, the choice is to move past it and to material more to their own level of interest. Back to the subject at hand, the use of machinery, Sir Richard Burton visited Solingen around 1875, "...the city had not yet been touched by the Industrial Revolution", and he noted 'the hammering and forging are utterly ignorant of progress', revealing his own contempt for the modern affectations of machines. He notes that tempering is done in water 'as usual' rather than oil. It was noted that the steam engine had led to many new machines, but despite dislike of the machines by bladesmiths, there was no denial of the opportunities afforded for mass production. In 1847.....a mechanism for ROLLING BLADES from long strips of steel was introduced, a "painful blow for the old masters". -"By The Sword", Richard Cohen, 2003, p.119 ('The Great Swordmakers). It seems odd that the most influential blade making center in the world apparently relied on tried and true old traditional anvil hammering methods this late in time, yet in England this great attention to rolling mills was at hand in the 17th century.