Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is a great thread Kieth well done on digging out all the names and other details... Something sparks in my mind about the rolling mill situation as the swordmakers backs onto the Derwent and at that point you can see a derelict eroded wall and I think this encased the rolling mil. Emphasis on I think ! There was I understand a huge stone wheel shaped object lying against one of the supporting walls and I believe it was at the terminus of a number of water courses drawn from about 500 metres up river which were tunneled under the road at the Durham end of the Bridge. The water may have been brought in to turn the wheel...and for tempering etc This wheel was a gigantic stone grinding wheel...of several tons ...and it seems to have gone? Has the Beamish Industrial Museum got it? There is a reference to it in one of my web references which I will try to dig up.

Having dug that up....Chapter 3: To Shotley

Bygate mentions that corn milling and coal mining were established in the local area and that there were accredited English swordmakers in Newcastle. He also refers to a half-sculpted grind stone next to the River Derwent

Could this have been a rolling mill grind stone ...?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I begin to have my doubts on some of the supposed Shotley Swords ...or claimed as Shotley swords...such as from~

https://collection.maas.museum/object/241752

Although it would fit very nicely into my suggestion that since the hotel/public house; ...The Crown and Crossed Swords was part of the Sword makers estate; ...that if the emblem was Two English basket swords crossed below a crown;...that swords of the Basket variety would have been made there?...see below.
On reflection the sword dates seem somewhat odd...perhaps a typing error....since if Shotley didn't start making swords til 1685 how can a sword with 1596 be slated here as from there?... Would it not simply be a Solingen sword?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

What of this one ? ~ It seems genuine especially with Shotley Bridge inscribed down the blade in capital letters....

Write up by Thomas Del Mare on this sold item...

Quote"AN ENGLISH BRASS-HILTED SMALL-SWORD, CIRCA 1740
inscribed 'Shotley Bridge' and incised with the running fox, brass hilt cast in low relief, comprising double shell-guard with moulded brim interrupted on each side by a panel of scrolls centring on a grotesque, each face divided into a six-petalled flower incorporating allegorical figures and a pair of classical profile masks, globular quillon, near rectangular knuckle-guard, and ovoid pommel decorated with tendrils issuant from a grotesque mask, and the grip bound with plaited wire and 'Turks' heads'
72.5cm; 28 1/2in blade.'' Unquote.

[Jim McDougall]

Guys, this is a wonderful discussion! and the research and entries are incredible. These conundrums have been mulled over for well over a century and a half, and there have been so many misconceptions and wrongly placed notions. As I have mentioned, I have tried to get further into the Hounslow, Hollow Blade and Shotley mysteries many times over at least 40 years.
Each time the material (which was a struggle to find before computers and the web) was so conflicting and tangled I ended up setting it aside. It is amazing to go at it again with super sleuths!!

It seems to me that the tangled web of German sword makers in England is being brought to light here in an almost forensic way as we gather and share evidence for evaluation.

Here is the KEY POINT about forum discussions.....it is never about who is right or wrong, but always about finding the right or best answers.

At this point it appears that German smiths were indeed in England from even the Tudor period, and that Charles I did bring numbers of them into England as early as the 1620s where they formed the enterprise known as Hounslow sword makers. While the earlier examples were marked with makers names and Hounslow, the practice tailed off later. The swords continued being produced it seems even after the English Civil wars however the industry there had been disrupted as some of the smiths followed the King to his locations in Oxford and London.

We know that the Royalists were well supplied with swords and blades from those locations as well as profoundly from mills in Birmingham. Meanwhile, Hounslow had become a Parliamentary stronghold and their supplier.

After the Civil Wars it seems Hounslow slipped into disrepair and by 1672 a mere shadow of its early glory, though apparently still producing in degree.
In a sense, it seems that the Hounslow phenomenon actually transcended into the Shotley Bridge one, and via the mysterious anomaly known as the Hollow Sword Blade Co. This entity was to fashion the now popular type of blades for rapiers which had become popular in France for rapiers and small swords which was triangular in section. It was termed 'hollow' for the three faces which were in effect hollowed out or fluted (far from the nonsense of misguided persons who thought the blade was really hollow to contain mercury!!? ).

This took place around 1685, and while many of the Germans had gone back to Solingen decades before, many had remained in the trade in different locations, so effectively became part of the Shotley Bridge circumstance. In this venture, it appears that the Hollow Blade entity became more of a financial venture (actually operating as a bank) with the production of blades more in line with producing hangers and other blades, but not of these hollow type (as far as is known).

The confusion in all of this is that some of the Germans had Anglicized their names so we are not sure which are individual persons or duplicates in the records. We do know that there were numbers of blades made in Shotley which became well known on hangers and often even munitions grade swords which were marked and even with the famed running wolf device.
This was not as surmised, a guild mark or scornfully placed symbol toward Solingen, but a mark the German makers regarded proudly as a quality device which had been in long standing from early times in Passau.

It does appear that 'hollow blades' were being brought into England and refinished in Shotley Bridge and that Herman Mohll, one of the key figures in these enterprises, was arrested with bundles of swords being brought to Newcastle for Shotley on a Dutch ship in 1703. Some of these were listed as hangers, but the other bundles not described.

Whatever the case, it does seem that even though the Shotley enterprise was closed in 1703, Mohll reopened it in 1716 (but died that year as well), and his son took over, but in 1724 or at some point it was sold to the Oley's.
Here is the confusion on the Oley's, who in some cases are claimed to be the ones who went to Birmingham to be the progenitors of the firm which became MOLE (later bought by Wilkinsons in 1870s).

While Shotley Bridge seems to have existed through the 18th century and into the 19th, it is not listed among sword making records anywhere after about 1703.

Curiously, the Birmingham smith Samuel Harvey used occasionally, the Running Wolf device with his initials (c.1740s-50s) but whether this had anything to do with Shotley other than commemorative perhaps, is unknown.

My guess is that Shotley remained in place more in terms of a cutlery producer later in the 18th century and into the 19th, when Sheffield consumed that part of the business.

The Shotley blades of late 17th into beginning of 17th so marked were refurbished and passed on as heirlooms and highly regarded in many officers swords and civilian swords through the 18th century. This has given the impression that the Shotley sword making continued, while it was the blades which carried on.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Folks. It appears you have been at SB Ibrahiim; I began researching there about a dozen years ago and then again just last week, it is remarkable just how advanced is the gentrification of the place, often at the expense of heritage unfortunately; there is nothing to be learned from visiting the place now.
It was Richard Bezdek who discovered the earlier start at SB (i.e.1685 not 1687) but I think we can be certain no-one else was making swords with a running fox or wolf over here before that, as Ibrahiim so succinctly detailed in a post on a much earlier thread, 'it was never used at Hounslow'. I suppose it is just possible it was used at Greenwich, that I don't know – does anyone? Either way, it certainly wasn't used at SB in 1596.
With further regard to the use of the fox: Samuel Harvey commandeered the image of the fox to bestow prestige and quality on his blades. No doubt the dreadful reputation of Birmingham blades, back when he was starting out, persuaded him to purloin it. He always had initials in the outline however, so there's no doubt they are not SB blades; although a lot of reputable dealers in this country will tell you they are. I have even seen the H for Harvey altered to look like a B (not hard is it?).
Oleys in later years (1750s onwards) were using a distinctly singular fox impression: an auction last year sold just such a blade on behalf of an ex. SB resident who had first-hand knowledge of its provenance and indicated it was made by the Oleys.
[IMG]
I've found so much detail that is pertinent that I really don't think I can post it all, but maybe I can add what I've found that is missing so far - such as Bertrams and Vintings. We imported a lot of Germans to develop our lead and copper mining up here in Northern England (and probably everywhere else I suspect) in the 1500s (there was a lead mine at Ryton Village which is just minutes from SB) so I suspect Vintings may well be descended from those early settlers. Equally, the Bertrams name was in the area long before SB was developed and as a blast-furnace expert, and owner, he may well have been involved in the pre-development of the village, anticipating the sword-makers' arrivals. We had a cutler here in Newcastle also – Thomas Carnforth – who was closely involved with Mohll (testified on his behalf during Mohll's imprisonment) and was equally certainly involved with Johannes Dell (John Bell) in setting up the syndicate, as he definitely needed a ready supply of 'hollow blades'.
With regard to the yearly output of the village: I am sure they made suitable swords for the Jacobites back in 1688 and onwards; just as I am certain they made them for Parliament. I think they simply made swords for a living and did not care where they went or who used them. Let's face it: after enduring the Thirty Years War, they would definitely want to keep their heads down and get on with their work. As we move along in time, outside factors impacted to a greater and a lesser degree, but so long as the mill-wheel kept turning they kept eating.
In 1690, it was stated by Sir Stephen Evance in a petition for a royal charter that the Germans were to be using their mills and engines expressly to produce hollow blades:
Our said subjects, at their great charge and management, have imported from foreign parts, divers persons, who have exercised in their own country the said art of making hollow sword blades by the use of certain newly invented instruments, engines and mills and by the contrivance of our said subjects, have prevailed upon them to expose themselves, to the hazard of their lives to impart to our said subjects their art and mystery. I am certain they had absolutely no intention of disclosing any secrets to us Brits.
Also in 1690, from an advertisement run for a week in the London Gazette:
Whereas great industry hath been used in erecting a manufacture for hollow sword blades at Newcastle [Shotley Bridge] by several able workmen brought from Germany, which now being brought to perfection, the undertakers thereof have thought fit to settle [set up] a warehouse at Mr Isaac Hadley’s, at the [sign of the] Five Bells; New Street, near Shoe Lane [in London] whereas callers can be furnished with all sorts of sword blades at reasonable prices.
Thirteen years later this appeared:
The Hollow Sword Blade company has lately received a considerable quantity of sword blades made at their mills at Shotley Bridge near Newcastle upon Tyne. They are now on sale at their warehouse in New St. near Fetter Lane.
tbc

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams urbanspaceman ~ No never been near the place. Not certain I agree with your statement on the area since most of Industrial North East England was demolished ...whereas at Shotley Bridge... which actually never had a coal mine did have the few industrial plants like the papermaking factory and the sword makers wiped off the record... largely the rest of it including the grand Victorian houses around the Spa and the quaint shop fronts and general structure of the little village centre has remained intact...and being restored I see...It looks like the river may have done for the rear end of the Mill near the bridge and the stone wheel may have been relocated by the raging waters in a great flood about 10 years ago..

A number of factors appear on the subject of that grinding wheel said to have been near the mill and a few feet from the waters edge at Shotley bridge. My recent post also mentions this and we know the concept of converting flour mills to sword mills already viz;..."The Making of Birmingham" Robert K. Dent (1894) p. 147, notes there were 'slitting and rolling' mills in several locations, including Digbeth, which was where Robert Porter had his mill. It states he converted his corn mill into a 'blade mill'. Was this also done at Shotley Bridge...?

I think what we need to place are examples of so called Shotley Bridge Swords with a possible time line to see where these weapons fit into a chronological sequence...The blade I placed with SHOTLEY clearly placed on the blade seems to be real HOWEVER THE WRITE UP SAYS CIRCA 1740 WHICH MEANS IT ISNT DATED ON THE BLADE BUT ESTIMATED ONLY..

I do not write off intrigue and skulduggery in the matter of the Jacobite situation. It may be remembered that this region was Border Reiver territory and the route to Scotland was over that bridge...It is quite possible that swords destined for the Jacobite cause could have gone through Reiver hands to Scottish beneficiaries along this route.

To date I have never seen a three edged sword stamped or said to be from Shotley Bridge.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I would like to copy in here the following~

[Bhttps://oldswords.com/articles/The%2...words-v1i4.pdf [/B]

where at notes on blades and collecting Shotley Bridge is named as a provider of basket hilts !!

Samuel Harvey needs to be observed to see where he fits into this ever revolving equation and I note he signed basket hilts seen at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...0maker&f=false page 36 where two cases are recorded for research although many more exist. Harveys work becomes slightly tangled with the Shotley factory and here it can be more clearly separated out...

In addition Samuel Harvey is noted with the SH ... stamp. I have also noted HAR...with VEY under in a square stamp format below.. and Harvey on various different parts of the weapon. Also below the first English cuphilt by Harvey...
The H in some weapons has been changed as you note earlier to a B in a forlorn attempt to try to show Shotley Bridge as the centre of origin..This is usually done inside the running fox...There is no such blademark as SB. Most Harvey examples shown are from his factory in Birmingham.

See Below.

1. It is clear that there is a difference between the running wolf of Solingen and the running fox with its bushy tail.
2. Often as you note the SH (Samuel Harvey) is altered to read SB ..
3. I suspect the sword with roughly applied SHOTLEY in capitals is a Solingen blade with lettering added later ... the wolf perhaps genuine. This could be an heirloom sword.
4. A probable Solingen sword appears with the talimanic 1414 Date and running wolf.