Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

With reference for my request for information about the roll-forge still at use in WKC Solingen: I spoke to Andre Willms at WKC and he referred me to the Klingenmuseum in Solingen, but unfortunately they were not able to help either. Somebody must know!

Keith, in trying to respond to this I have to admit I am not familiar with metal working processes, so unclear what a 'roll forge' is. However, it seems possible that the 'rolling mill' might be what is meant?

The rolling mill was apparently around in England with Henry Cort and Funtley iron mills near Fareham, England with a patent around 1783. There seem to have been uses of this in Sweden earlier (1760s) and probably earlier. These apparently roll forged steel into the thinner stock for blades.

This further seems to have been known even as early as mid 17th century, as Robert Porter of Birmingham had a mill which supplied as many as 15,000 blades to Parliamentary forces in 1642. This in addition to the blades produced in Hounslow.
q.v. "The Making of Birmingham" Robert K. Dent (1894) p. 147, notes there were 'slitting and rolling' mills in several locations, including Digbeth, which was where Robert Porter had his mill. It states he converted his corn mill into a 'blade mill'.

The Royalist forces destroyed his mill after Edgehill (1643). However his son seems to have continued in Birmingham with blades as in 1686 he approached the Cutlers Company for approval.

In Aylward (1945, p.32) it is noted that the Hollow Sword Co. backed by Lord Dartmouth "...had a rolling mill at Hounslow, but in spite of this it petitioned for a patent for the importation, trial and marking of blades".
(this from "The Shotley Bridge Sword Blade Co." Appleby-Miller, 1943)

Interesting that this entry alludes to the Hollow Sword Co. which we know was centered at Shotley Bridge, but mentions a rolling mill at Hounslow. Hounslow by 1672 was in complete shambles by then, so why mention it as a viable mill for blades? Further it is clear that blades were to be brought in to be finished.

It sounds as if Birmingham production was pretty sound in these times, but their blades were not highly favored if I recall other notes.

Aylward (p.33) claims that small swords of Shotley Bridge may exist but none have tang marks which might identify them, and that it seems that the company imported forgings from Solingen which were ground, tempered and finished at Shotley. He provides lists of the makers there from Henry Hooper (Hoppe?) 1687; Adam Oley 1692; includes others Mohl and Oley and through the 18th century, with William Oley last in 1808.
Hermann Mohl is listed as a grinder 1687-1717.
Remember he is the one arrested with chests of blades in 1703 from Holland (Solingen blades) suggesting this practice of importation was right.

It does not seem that iron deposits or smelting were key to the location chosen for the Shotley premises, as the 'cementation' process required iron ore of higher quality, which was imported from Sweden to the port at Newcastle.

Regarding the case of Solingen, they apparently depended greatly on Swedish iron as well, though the deposits near there were high in manganese needed for pliable blades. Beech forests provided well for the carbon needed.
It seems there are mixed reviews on the actual production, the materials etc. so more work needed.

So why Shotley? Hounslow was still extant in some degree in 1672 and had mills, so why not refurbish it? Birmingham was active in production, but were their blades disfavored?
If Shotley and the Hollow Blade scam were just a front, why are Shotley makers listed through the entire 18th c. and why even into the 19th?

The rolling mills were introduced in Solingen in 1847.......Burton went there in 1860s and they were still using hammer and anvil. Why did the most industrious blade making center in the world not have these 'rolling mills' until mid 19th c. when it seems they were around early in the 17th and in England?

The more I read on these conundrums the more questions!

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Jim. I am sure that you are correct and it was a rolling mill they were referring-to.
I am equally puzzled as to why WKC in Solingen needed to buy a patent from us Brits; hence my following it up. However, the vexed subject of 'Luddites' is ever present when talking about Solingen, as I'm certain the introduction of machines was one of the main reasons why the sword-smiths were allowed to leave so easily.
Of course, Solingen is a Catholic city, so maybe it was the Lutherans that were surplus to requirements when the machines came along. That is what they were you know; they even brought a Lutheran preacher to Shotley Bridge with them: a fact I only discovered a couple of days ago when searching the archives of the museum that originally held Lord Gort's collection of swords in permanent display. There is nothing at Hamsterly Hall now, nor has there been for thirty years at least; Lord Gort left his collection to said museum in his will; I discovered that talking to the new owners of the hall many years ago.
Still, on that note, I'm scheduled to visit many of our manor-houses and inhabited castles, as we have an abundance, as I'm sure you are aware. I know a few of the local aristos which gets my foot in the door: Alnwick Castle, for example, has a huge armoury, and Mr. Percy is always looking for fundraising ideas now Mr. Potter has retired.
In reference to Aylward's mention of the Hollow Blade Co. at Hounslow: I am certain this is an error.
The Germans at SB initially used local iron ore – there are an abundance of old mines known locally as the German Bands – but soon switched to Swedish imports before eventually using Dan Hayward, which is what Sir Ambrose Crowley was doing as well.
With regard to Hounslow: according to one source, the latest 'dated' Hounslow blade known is 1637 (that needs corroborating), but deliveries from William Walker, who owned a mill at Hounslow, were still on-going in 1660 when he supplied the Board of Ordnance with 1,000 Hangers for sea service. In 1674, Peter Munsten (English) and Henry Hoppe (the elder) approached the London Cutlers Company intending to establish a hollow ground sword blade factory in Hounslow, but nothing happened. Apparently, there was almost no output from Hounslow by 1675.
I certain that the initial enterprise at SB in 1685 with Hoppe, Dell and Henekels was for hollow blade small-swords (they had brought their German grinding engine with them after-all) but the demand for military blades that subsequently materialised meant that the extra 19 families were brought over. I don't think secrecy was required to protect their processes – the Germans had been keeping their secrets safe for over a hundred years, since the Greenwich arsenal began – I think it was to allow them to supply both sides during the Jacobite rebellions; and allow Mohll to beef-up productivity by bringing in Solingen stock. It's quite probable that the death of the Earl of Derwentwater in 1716 may have put paid to their cash cow.
The search goes ever on and on…

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is a great thread Kieth well done on digging out all the names and other details... Something sparks in my mind about the rolling mill situation as the swordmakers backs onto the Derwent and at that point you can see a derelict eroded wall and I think this encased the rolling mil. Emphasis on I think ! There was I understand a huge stone wheel shaped object lying against one of the supporting walls and I believe it was at the terminus of a number of water courses drawn from about 500 metres up river which were tunneled under the road at the Durham end of the Bridge. The water may have been brought in to turn the wheel...and for tempering etc This wheel was a gigantic stone grinding wheel...of several tons ...and it seems to have gone? Has the Beamish Industrial Museum got it? There is a reference to it in one of my web references which I will try to dig up.

Having dug that up....Chapter 3: To Shotley

Bygate mentions that corn milling and coal mining were established in the local area and that there were accredited English swordmakers in Newcastle. He also refers to a half-sculpted grind stone next to the River Derwent

Could this have been a rolling mill grind stone ...?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I begin to have my doubts on some of the supposed Shotley Swords ...or claimed as Shotley swords...such as from~

https://collection.maas.museum/object/241752

Although it would fit very nicely into my suggestion that since the hotel/public house; ...The Crown and Crossed Swords was part of the Sword makers estate; ...that if the emblem was Two English basket swords crossed below a crown;...that swords of the Basket variety would have been made there?...see below.
On reflection the sword dates seem somewhat odd...perhaps a typing error....since if Shotley didn't start making swords til 1685 how can a sword with 1596 be slated here as from there?... Would it not simply be a Solingen sword?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

What of this one ? ~ It seems genuine especially with Shotley Bridge inscribed down the blade in capital letters....

Write up by Thomas Del Mare on this sold item...

Quote"AN ENGLISH BRASS-HILTED SMALL-SWORD, CIRCA 1740
inscribed 'Shotley Bridge' and incised with the running fox, brass hilt cast in low relief, comprising double shell-guard with moulded brim interrupted on each side by a panel of scrolls centring on a grotesque, each face divided into a six-petalled flower incorporating allegorical figures and a pair of classical profile masks, globular quillon, near rectangular knuckle-guard, and ovoid pommel decorated with tendrils issuant from a grotesque mask, and the grip bound with plaited wire and 'Turks' heads'
72.5cm; 28 1/2in blade.'' Unquote.

[Jim McDougall]

Guys, this is a wonderful discussion! and the research and entries are incredible. These conundrums have been mulled over for well over a century and a half, and there have been so many misconceptions and wrongly placed notions. As I have mentioned, I have tried to get further into the Hounslow, Hollow Blade and Shotley mysteries many times over at least 40 years.
Each time the material (which was a struggle to find before computers and the web) was so conflicting and tangled I ended up setting it aside. It is amazing to go at it again with super sleuths!!

It seems to me that the tangled web of German sword makers in England is being brought to light here in an almost forensic way as we gather and share evidence for evaluation.

Here is the KEY POINT about forum discussions.....it is never about who is right or wrong, but always about finding the right or best answers.

At this point it appears that German smiths were indeed in England from even the Tudor period, and that Charles I did bring numbers of them into England as early as the 1620s where they formed the enterprise known as Hounslow sword makers. While the earlier examples were marked with makers names and Hounslow, the practice tailed off later. The swords continued being produced it seems even after the English Civil wars however the industry there had been disrupted as some of the smiths followed the King to his locations in Oxford and London.

We know that the Royalists were well supplied with swords and blades from those locations as well as profoundly from mills in Birmingham. Meanwhile, Hounslow had become a Parliamentary stronghold and their supplier.

After the Civil Wars it seems Hounslow slipped into disrepair and by 1672 a mere shadow of its early glory, though apparently still producing in degree.
In a sense, it seems that the Hounslow phenomenon actually transcended into the Shotley Bridge one, and via the mysterious anomaly known as the Hollow Sword Blade Co. This entity was to fashion the now popular type of blades for rapiers which had become popular in France for rapiers and small swords which was triangular in section. It was termed 'hollow' for the three faces which were in effect hollowed out or fluted (far from the nonsense of misguided persons who thought the blade was really hollow to contain mercury!!? ).

This took place around 1685, and while many of the Germans had gone back to Solingen decades before, many had remained in the trade in different locations, so effectively became part of the Shotley Bridge circumstance. In this venture, it appears that the Hollow Blade entity became more of a financial venture (actually operating as a bank) with the production of blades more in line with producing hangers and other blades, but not of these hollow type (as far as is known).

The confusion in all of this is that some of the Germans had Anglicized their names so we are not sure which are individual persons or duplicates in the records. We do know that there were numbers of blades made in Shotley which became well known on hangers and often even munitions grade swords which were marked and even with the famed running wolf device.
This was not as surmised, a guild mark or scornfully placed symbol toward Solingen, but a mark the German makers regarded proudly as a quality device which had been in long standing from early times in Passau.

It does appear that 'hollow blades' were being brought into England and refinished in Shotley Bridge and that Herman Mohll, one of the key figures in these enterprises, was arrested with bundles of swords being brought to Newcastle for Shotley on a Dutch ship in 1703. Some of these were listed as hangers, but the other bundles not described.

Whatever the case, it does seem that even though the Shotley enterprise was closed in 1703, Mohll reopened it in 1716 (but died that year as well), and his son took over, but in 1724 or at some point it was sold to the Oley's.
Here is the confusion on the Oley's, who in some cases are claimed to be the ones who went to Birmingham to be the progenitors of the firm which became MOLE (later bought by Wilkinsons in 1870s).

While Shotley Bridge seems to have existed through the 18th century and into the 19th, it is not listed among sword making records anywhere after about 1703.

Curiously, the Birmingham smith Samuel Harvey used occasionally, the Running Wolf device with his initials (c.1740s-50s) but whether this had anything to do with Shotley other than commemorative perhaps, is unknown.

My guess is that Shotley remained in place more in terms of a cutlery producer later in the 18th century and into the 19th, when Sheffield consumed that part of the business.

The Shotley blades of late 17th into beginning of 17th so marked were refurbished and passed on as heirlooms and highly regarded in many officers swords and civilian swords through the 18th century. This has given the impression that the Shotley sword making continued, while it was the blades which carried on.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Folks. It appears you have been at SB Ibrahiim; I began researching there about a dozen years ago and then again just last week, it is remarkable just how advanced is the gentrification of the place, often at the expense of heritage unfortunately; there is nothing to be learned from visiting the place now.
It was Richard Bezdek who discovered the earlier start at SB (i.e.1685 not 1687) but I think we can be certain no-one else was making swords with a running fox or wolf over here before that, as Ibrahiim so succinctly detailed in a post on a much earlier thread, 'it was never used at Hounslow'. I suppose it is just possible it was used at Greenwich, that I don't know – does anyone? Either way, it certainly wasn't used at SB in 1596.
With further regard to the use of the fox: Samuel Harvey commandeered the image of the fox to bestow prestige and quality on his blades. No doubt the dreadful reputation of Birmingham blades, back when he was starting out, persuaded him to purloin it. He always had initials in the outline however, so there's no doubt they are not SB blades; although a lot of reputable dealers in this country will tell you they are. I have even seen the H for Harvey altered to look like a B (not hard is it?).
Oleys in later years (1750s onwards) were using a distinctly singular fox impression: an auction last year sold just such a blade on behalf of an ex. SB resident who had first-hand knowledge of its provenance and indicated it was made by the Oleys.
[IMG]
I've found so much detail that is pertinent that I really don't think I can post it all, but maybe I can add what I've found that is missing so far - such as Bertrams and Vintings. We imported a lot of Germans to develop our lead and copper mining up here in Northern England (and probably everywhere else I suspect) in the 1500s (there was a lead mine at Ryton Village which is just minutes from SB) so I suspect Vintings may well be descended from those early settlers. Equally, the Bertrams name was in the area long before SB was developed and as a blast-furnace expert, and owner, he may well have been involved in the pre-development of the village, anticipating the sword-makers' arrivals. We had a cutler here in Newcastle also – Thomas Carnforth – who was closely involved with Mohll (testified on his behalf during Mohll's imprisonment) and was equally certainly involved with Johannes Dell (John Bell) in setting up the syndicate, as he definitely needed a ready supply of 'hollow blades'.
With regard to the yearly output of the village: I am sure they made suitable swords for the Jacobites back in 1688 and onwards; just as I am certain they made them for Parliament. I think they simply made swords for a living and did not care where they went or who used them. Let's face it: after enduring the Thirty Years War, they would definitely want to keep their heads down and get on with their work. As we move along in time, outside factors impacted to a greater and a lesser degree, but so long as the mill-wheel kept turning they kept eating.
In 1690, it was stated by Sir Stephen Evance in a petition for a royal charter that the Germans were to be using their mills and engines expressly to produce hollow blades:
Our said subjects, at their great charge and management, have imported from foreign parts, divers persons, who have exercised in their own country the said art of making hollow sword blades by the use of certain newly invented instruments, engines and mills and by the contrivance of our said subjects, have prevailed upon them to expose themselves, to the hazard of their lives to impart to our said subjects their art and mystery. I am certain they had absolutely no intention of disclosing any secrets to us Brits.
Also in 1690, from an advertisement run for a week in the London Gazette:
Whereas great industry hath been used in erecting a manufacture for hollow sword blades at Newcastle [Shotley Bridge] by several able workmen brought from Germany, which now being brought to perfection, the undertakers thereof have thought fit to settle [set up] a warehouse at Mr Isaac Hadley’s, at the [sign of the] Five Bells; New Street, near Shoe Lane [in London] whereas callers can be furnished with all sorts of sword blades at reasonable prices.
Thirteen years later this appeared:
The Hollow Sword Blade company has lately received a considerable quantity of sword blades made at their mills at Shotley Bridge near Newcastle upon Tyne. They are now on sale at their warehouse in New St. near Fetter Lane.
tbc

[Hotspur]

A site I have never spent enough time with. I have a lot on shelves over there gathering dust.
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

The Hollow Sword Co comes up frequently in a legal aspect. I am forgetting the particulars but the issues during the later 18th century. Worth spending a bit of time there running searches from an enormous database.

Cheers

GC

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. You have found some vital material here, thank-you. I note Jenny Morrison's involvement in some of the material: she is head of Archaeology for the county but has just returned from her holidays so I am waiting to hear from her regarding this iron and steel issue; I have consulted her a few times in the past; she is sitting on a wealth of information that she can enthusiastically supply without effort.
"Finding a lost play" perfectly put! It is precisely why I have embraced the iron industry in general, and the Derwent Valley in particular. My research into Wootz got me started, and I rapidly began to appreciate just how closely connected are the two industries; with steel surviving, of course, and sword-making becoming a cultural craft.
This research led me - inevitably - to Benjamin Huntsman the clock-maker from Doncaster, who moved to Sheffield's environs as he began his crucible manufacturing. I came across an interesting note on Wikipedia that is apropos of little but the probability that it was Klingenthal where it went; although I am only guessing here - I am certain someone will know for sure:
The local (Sheffield) cutlery manufacturers refused to buy Huntsman's cast steel, as it was harder than the German steel they were accustomed to using. For a long time Huntsman exported his whole output to France.
As I have already stated, the arrival of the Germans in Shotley Bridge was never fully justified - considering the vast number of alternatives, but once you put the iron and steel industry into the equation it becomes far more realistic a proposition.
I don't, however, discount the abundance of necessary facilities and materials available, because they were a pre-requisite. I am particularly interested in Richardson's statement about the water being radio-active; I am determined to track down just what was meant by that and where the proposition came from, as Richardson doesn't say. There was also the business of the water being the equal of the Tagus: just what exactly are we talking about here? Mineral content? Isotopes? What else?
There is still much to confirm however: in particular, the presence of Bertram prior to 1685. I know he was shipwrecked in 1690, but I don't take that to mean he was not here before then; I have to look into that.
One thing I am learning, as I progress with researching history, is that I mustn't jump on the odd piece of information – or even a much repeated myth, like Mohll becoming Mole – just because it presents a convincing scenario. For example, three times in 24 hours I have read that in one case Bertram, and in two cases Hayford, had sword-works in Shotley Bridge: is this true? has it been overlooked by everyone so far? Like I said, don't grasp at stuff just because it fits the picture. A supreme example of this would be to consider that sword-making existed in Shotley Bridge prior to 1685, and that the three members of the Hounslow group simply came up to join existing swordmakers.
I am going to tag a couple of items: one is a report for English Heritage when they took over the care of the Derwentcote forge; the second is a clipping regarding the leading lights of the Sheffield steel industry specifically our very own Denis Hayford.
[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Richardson. His Spa water apparently tasted pretty bad... perhaps because of the mineral content or even H2S Sulphurous water is supposed to be good for skin ailments etc...

1847. Jonathan Richardson's Spa in Shotley Bridge

The spring anciently called "Hally Well," now Shotley Spa, was at a distant period noted for its efficacy in the cure of scrofulous complaints ( Literally, relating to scrofula (tuberculosis (or TB like bacteria) of the lymph nodes, particularly of the neck). it fell, however, into disuse, and for a long time no benefit was derived from it, till a prevailing tradition lately induced Jonathan Richardson, Esq., to commence a search upon the spot where it was supposed to exist.
The search was successful. Appropriate buildings, a wellroom, baths, &c, were erected in the rustic style; and Mr. Richardson has opened carriage-drives and promenades upon his estate.
In the village, there are two paper-mills in operation; a market for corn is held weekly, and a fair for cattle every half year.

[urbanspaceman]

I found Wilhelm Bertram's birth records: 1670 - 1740; born in Remsheid as previously indicated. 70 years old when he died: not bad for someone who worked in such an awful environment.
The date of his shipwreck varies however between 1690 and 1693.
Regardless of that, he was just into his twenties, very young to be put in charge of a steel-making furnace.
I need to get more details e.g. where was the ship going? coming from? why was he on it? etc, etc.
Hmmm. I think Jenny Morrison may know.

[urbanspaceman]

My obsession with Bertram is because here was another German who mysteriously found his way to Shotley Bridge.
Was he on his way there anyway? And if so, why? Who sent for him? Was he with other industry workers on the ship?
The North Durham coast, where he was shipwrecked, is essentially the mouth of the Tyne, and aiming for the Tyne from out at sea in those days could quite easily have you blown slightly south, usually with tragic results.
In my opinion, his business was on Tyneside; or possibly Wearside if he was going to work for Sir Ambrose Crowley at his works in Sunderland.