Collection of Sajen

kai · 21st August 2017, 07:51 AM

Hello Kulino,

I'm with the others and applaud to your efforts to share the whole collection with us! I'd also be very interested in the jimat and kudi - it's rare to see good examples of these, too!

Could you possibly tell us more on the background of the original collector? It does seem that he was especially into the metaphysical side of things?

Regarding discussing the fate of "our" collections that we're currently taking care of, maybe this would be good to discuss in this dedicated thread here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22474

While discussing the pieces on this forum allows for additional info and welcome interaction, it may also be an option to put up a dedicated website presenting and virtually preserving the full collection in a somewhat more structured approach. This has already been done for our late long-time forumite Lew:
http://www.vikingsword.com/lew/index.html

Regards,
Kai

Kulino · 21st August 2017, 12:19 PM

Dear Detlef,
Thanks for the links. The one about what to do next, is focussing on selling it , which is an alternative. When my friend and I talked about what to do with it, his preference clearly was to keep it together. That would be my first goal. We also talked about how to promote interest. Our idea is that in order to raise this, you have to able to fall in love with quality pieces. This seems to be contradictive to the keeping together idea.

Kulino · 21st August 2017, 12:21 PM

Next batch

Sajen · 21st August 2017, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Kai,

do you have changed your name because you like my one more?

Best,
Detlef

Kulino · 21st August 2017, 01:45 PM

Saw that too, got a bit confused. I gather Kai send me the reply with the links and not Detlef? Sorry for my misnaming.

Jean · 21st August 2017, 02:59 PM

Hello Kulino,
Thank you for posting the pics of these nice and rare pieces with different designs. Has anybody an opinion about the estimated age of these pieces, personally I am totally confused about it although it may not be considered as important.
Regards

Kulino · 21st August 2017, 05:22 PM

Hello Jean,
As far as I understand, although these keris are named and dated as keris Majapahit, this must be considered a misconception. Indeed the one found inside one of the stupa op Borobudur (now in the collection of Theo Alkema) might be an indication of when they were made. However, there is no reason why they couldn't have been made earlier or later. Among others, Theo Alkema ( Book: Iron Ancestors) and Martin Kerner (A statistic study on the morphology of keris) come to the same conclusion: There is no certain way of telling how old they might be. When I was at Martin Kerner's home I handled a proto keris ( as depicted on candi Suku). It was dug up from the slopes of the inside Bromo krater. He had this specimen carbon dated. The conclusion was (within a certain time frame), around 800 ad.
The Knaud keris has not been subjected to this kind of testing, there is only a year indication. Apart from these more or less subjective indications, there is no certainty.
When my friend collector and I discussed this, we tried to be open minded and be guided by what we saw’. By looking at the individual keris and by comparing among others, skin, material, wear, weight, figurine posture, tilt, squat, head attire, face, body decorations, one might conclude that one keris is part of a group and the one group could be older than the other. The wear could be a problem. Has this keris, tosan aji, been dug up, been taken care of properly, placed in the stream of a sawa, revered as pusaka? The same approach can be used when looking at the Jimat and Kudi published on the other forum. As indicated earlier, there has already been an extensive discussion and a link to Alan Maisey’s site with lots of information. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=putut

Kulino · 21st August 2017, 05:26 PM

Next batch.

Kulino · 21st August 2017, 05:27 PM

Box 2 overview

kai · 21st August 2017, 08:36 PM

Hello Detlef,

Quote:

do you have changed your name because you like my one more?

Possibly, or it might have been a Freudian slip since a keris sajen that had already my name on it found its way to you by accident...

Regards,
Kai "a rose by any other name..."

Sajen · 21st August 2017, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Detlef,

Possibly, or it might have been a Freudian slip since a keris sajen that had already my name on it found its way to you by accident...

Regards,
Kai "a rose by any other name..."

Kulino · 22nd August 2017, 09:48 AM

BTW Box 1 contains Jimat, so Sajen started with box 2.
For the sake of speed, I'll limit the amout of pictures of each keris to1, instead of three.

Kulino · 22nd August 2017, 09:50 AM

Second part of box 3

Kulino · 22nd August 2017, 09:51 AM

Third part of box 3. Plus overview

21st August 2017, 07:51 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,246	Hello Kulino, I'm with the others and applaud to your efforts to share the whole collection with us! I'd also be very interested in the jimat and kudi - it's rare to see good examples of these, too! Could you possibly tell us more on the background of the original collector? It does seem that he was especially into the metaphysical side of things? Regarding discussing the fate of "our" collections that we're currently taking care of, maybe this would be good to discuss in this dedicated thread here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22474 While discussing the pieces on this forum allows for additional info and welcome interaction, it may also be an option to put up a dedicated website presenting and virtually preserving the full collection in a somewhat more structured approach. This has already been done for our late long-time forumite Lew: http://www.vikingsword.com/lew/index.html Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 21st August 2017 at 06:59 PM. Reason: Re-Baptism. ;)

21st August 2017, 12:19 PM	#2
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	Dedicated webspace Dear Detlef, Thanks for the links. The one about what to do next, is focussing on selling it , which is an alternative. When my friend and I talked about what to do with it, his preference clearly was to keep it together. That would be my first goal. We also talked about how to promote interest. Our idea is that in order to raise this, you have to able to fall in love with quality pieces. This seems to be contradictive to the keeping together idea. Attached Images

21st August 2017, 12:21 PM	#3
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	next batch Next batch Attached Images

21st August 2017, 01:45 PM	#5
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	Double indentity or passport? :) Saw that too, got a bit confused. I gather Kai send me the reply with the links and not Detlef? Sorry for my misnaming.

21st August 2017, 05:22 PM	#7
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	Hello Jean, As far as I understand, although these keris are named and dated as keris Majapahit, this must be considered a misconception. Indeed the one found inside one of the stupa op Borobudur (now in the collection of Theo Alkema) might be an indication of when they were made. However, there is no reason why they couldn't have been made earlier or later. Among others, Theo Alkema ( Book: Iron Ancestors) and Martin Kerner (A statistic study on the morphology of keris) come to the same conclusion: There is no certain way of telling how old they might be. When I was at Martin Kerner's home I handled a proto keris ( as depicted on candi Suku). It was dug up from the slopes of the inside Bromo krater. He had this specimen carbon dated. The conclusion was (within a certain time frame), around 800 ad. The Knaud keris has not been subjected to this kind of testing, there is only a year indication. Apart from these more or less subjective indications, there is no certainty. When my friend collector and I discussed this, we tried to be open minded and be guided by what we saw’. By looking at the individual keris and by comparing among others, skin, material, wear, weight, figurine posture, tilt, squat, head attire, face, body decorations, one might conclude that one keris is part of a group and the one group could be older than the other. The wear could be a problem. Has this keris, tosan aji, been dug up, been taken care of properly, placed in the stream of a sawa, revered as pusaka? The same approach can be used when looking at the Jimat and Kudi published on the other forum. As indicated earlier, there has already been an extensive discussion and a link to Alan Maisey’s site with lots of information. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=putut Attached Images

21st August 2017, 02:59 PM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Kulino, Thank you for posting the pics of these nice and rare pieces with different designs. Has anybody an opinion about the estimated age of these pieces, personally I am totally confused about it although it may not be considered as important. Regards

21st August 2017, 05:26 PM	#8
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	next batch Next batch. Attached Images Last edited by Kulino; 22nd August 2017 at 07:27 AM.

21st August 2017, 05:27 PM	#9
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	box 2overview Box 2 overview Attached Images

22nd August 2017, 09:48 AM	#12
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	box3.1 BTW Box 1 contains Jimat, so Sajen started with box 2. For the sake of speed, I'll limit the amout of pictures of each keris to1, instead of three. Attached Images

22nd August 2017, 09:50 AM	#13
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	Box 3.2 Second part of box 3 Attached Images

22nd August 2017, 09:51 AM	#14
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	3.3 Third part of box 3. Plus overview Attached Images