Two daggers for comment

[Miguel]

Hello everyone, I would be grateful to receive your comments on these two daggers.

The first one I believe to be a Karud. It is very well made having a green stone and steel handle with a fullered blade. The scabbard is wood originally covered with leather but now covered in a plastic material by a previous owner, the fittings are steel. I am not sure whether it is Indian or Afghanistan.
O/l is 19 ins with a 14 ins blade x 2 ins wide at the hilt.

The second one I am not sure whether it is a Karud or a straight backed Pesh Kabz and whether it is indian or central Asian. The dagger has a horn hilt and the scabbard ie wood covered in leather.
O/L is17 ins with a 12.5 ins blade x 1.75 ins wide at the hilt.
Thank you
Miguel

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Miguel,

In my oppinion they are both North Indian. The first one second half of 20th century (meaning recent), the second one possibly a couple of decades older.

What is the difference between a Karud and a straight Pesh-kabz?

[ariel]

None whatsoever:-)

Karud is a misnomer: Persian pronounciation of the word "Kard" inserts a poorly-defined vowel sound between two consonants. This is why European collectors rendered it as either Karud of Kared.

Elgood and Flindt suspected it, but could not find any proof for their hypothesis.

I found the original source of that confusion. Perhaps, I should write it up and clear the misunderstanding, but I am in Israel right now and playing with grandkids is my priority #1 ( and 2,3,4.. etc:-)

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Miguel,

In my oppinion they are both North Indian. The first one second half of 20th century (meaning recent), the second one possibly a couple of decades older.

What is the difference between a Karud and a straight Pesh-kabz?

Hello Marius, thank you for your reply I was leaning towards India myself but was unsure also welcome was your dating for which I am obliged.

I do not know what the difference is between a straight backed pesh kabz and a karud but I think Ariel has answered the question in his reply.

Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by ariel

None whatsoever:-)

Karud is a misnomer: Persian pronounciation of the word "Kard" inserts a poorly-defined vowel sound between two consonants. This is why European collectors rendered it as either Karud of Kared.

Elgood and Flindt suspected it, but could not find any proof for their hypothesis.

I found the original source of that confusion. Perhaps, I should write it up and clear the misunderstanding, but I am in Israel right now and playing with grandkids is my priority #1 ( and 2,3,4.. etc:-)

Hello Ariel, I think you should, also hope you enjoy the rest of your holiday
Regards
Miguel

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ariel

playing with grandkids is my priority #1 ( and 2,3,4.. etc:-)

And still have time and energy to post an answer here! Wow!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Miguel,

In my oppinion they are both North Indian. The first one second half of 20th century (meaning recent), the second one possibly a couple of decades older.

What is the difference between a Karud and a straight Pesh-kabz?

One is Indian the other I believe is Afghan.

There is no such thing as a "straight pesh-kabz" (in my opinion). a dagger is either a pesh-kabz shape or not, if resembles a pesh-kabz but with a straight blade it is currently called a "karud". It does not really matter how these straight bladed daggers came to be called "karud" by many collectors, dealers etc except for historical purposes. You can call them whatever you want, but do not confuse people by referring to them as being "pesh-kabz".

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

I found the original source of that confusion. Perhaps, I should write it up and clear the misunderstanding

Still waiting!!!!!

[Ferguson]

The one with the dark handle looks a bit like my Bukharan kard as shown in this thread
A karud

Steve

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ferguson

The one with the dark handle looks a bit like my Bukharan kard as shown in this thread
A karud

Steve

Ferguson, how did your karud dagger suddenly become a "kard"? It is another "karud" as you correctly identified it in your post, a nice example.

[estcrh]

Ferguson. when you compare both of these karud daggers there is a distinct difference. I think the top one is Afghan while yours appears to be a Bukharan karud dagger.

[Ferguson]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ferguson, how did your karud dagger suddenly become a "kard"? It is another "karud" as you correctly identified it in your post, a nice example.

It suddenly became a kard when I read Ariels post above that said Karud was an incorrect term. I'm just a collector, not a scholar, and was trying to be as correct as possible.

Sorry,
Steve

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ferguson

It suddenly became a kard when I read Ariels post above that said Karud was an incorrect term. I'm just a collector, not a scholar, and was trying to be as correct as possible.

Sorry,
Steve

Ok, I understand, which is exactly why I took the time to answer Ariels post. Pesh-kabz, karud and kard are all very distinct types, yes some blur the lines but for the most part you can easily tell them apart. Your karud is a karud and not a kard.

Now some people have tried to imply that certain names for swords and daggers etc are not correct according to the native language from were they originated. This may be true but the names now applied in OUR times are an attempt to categorize very recognizable types, no one I know has implied that all of the names are culturally correct.

If someone wants to call a karud a "cow" instead so be it, but the fact remains that it will still not be a pesh or kard. Below is an example from Artzi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Dont worry Ferguson - please go on smiling:-)
Jens

[A. G. Maisey]

These sharp pointy things are totally outside my area of study, but I really do love discussions such as the one beginning to take place here.

Thank you gentlemen.

Here is a very entertaining discussion that proceeds along a similar path:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=kard

Delightful!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

These sharp pointy things are totally outside my area of study, but I really do love discussions such as the one beginning to take place here.

Thank you gentlemen.

Here is a very entertaining discussion that proceeds along a similar path:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=kard

Delightful!

A.J., the usual suspects, arguing us back to the good old dark ages were anything could be called a jambiya, kard, pesh, khanjar etc without any clear defining method to the madness.

[estcrh]

Pesh-kabz on the left, karud dagger on the right, does anyone really think these are all the same despite the total difference in blades?

Left from top down, Pesh-kabz: Persian, Afghan, Afghan. Right from top down, Karud: Afghan, Afghan, Afghan (choora type).

[estcrh]

While we are at it, does anyone really think that a kahnjar and a jambiya are the same despite the complete difference in blades?

Khanjar daggers (lt) compared to jambiya daggers (rt), there is a big difference. Top down, left side khanjar: Indian, Indian, Indian (khanjarli type). Top down right side jambiya: Ottoman (Albania), Indian, Indian (tiger tooth type).