An unusual blade

Rick · 16th June 2017, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

David, Rick,

My initial thoughts when it arrived were north east coast peninsular, but I soon forgot the features of the Gandik and was lost in the broad bevelled edges and followed another path and have been lost in Sumatra.
Given the almost mono-steel appearance and the nature of the heat treatment, these points are typical of Patani through to Terengganu.

As you suspect, it is likely better placed in Malaysia.

Gavin

From other places too.
Iirc this was collected in Makassar, 1920's.

Gavin Nugent · 16th June 2017, 06:35 AM

Apart from the unusual arrangement of the "fullers", and using Adni's reference as an ID guide, the Ron Da Nunut is also very unusual to my eye...specifically that nothing protrudes beyond the edge of the blade but it is "within".

Here is Henri's keris;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=inlaid+keris

I have seen another 9 luk version of the type too.

Gavin

Gavin Nugent · 8th November 2023, 01:08 PM

Mystery solved some years ago, Jambi is the origins.

A couple of others crept into the collection since 2017 too.

Those either side carry Alif pamor.

A. G. Maisey · 8th November 2023, 08:44 PM

Gavin, would a close-up of the "alif" pamor be possible?

David · 14th November 2023, 09:46 PM

Hey Gavin. I guess you missed Alan's request. I would like to see that close-up as well because i cannot really see ANY pamor on any of these blades. Thanks!

Gavin Nugent · 17th November 2023, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hey Gavin. I guess you missed Alan's request. I would like to see that close-up as well because i cannot really see ANY pamor on any of these blades. Thanks!

Hello, David, Alan,

Apologies, I thought you may have seen the first image in the post and read on. (inserting broken shrug emoji.(when will the emoji be fixed?)).

The feature is Anak Sungai, not Alif. All is solved on both fronts.

I have below an Alif image from another Malay blade here though, it is part of a blade with triple Alif.

A. G. Maisey · 17th November 2023, 01:17 PM

Thank you very much Gavin, I do appreciate you providing both your text and the image, however, I am mystified.

Perhaps you might be able to give us a little bit of the back story on how, where or who you sourced this information from?

I am familiar with the alif, & also the problems surrounding that letter ( & other letters).

In the context of bladed weaponry, the word pamor indicates metal that has been mixed, your image in post 18 is a mark, it is not pamor. What I believe I can see in your post 18 image is an incision, it might be a flaw, it might be something else, but it is not any sort of pamor motif. The line in the center of the first blade you posted is a cold shut, a flaw, it is not pamor.

Where pamor alif --- or more correctly in BI & Malay, "alip" --- does occur, it has the form of one of the ways in which the letter alif can be written, and it is normally an inclusion in a more dominant pamor, usually an intended inclusion, but it can occur accidentally.The main thing is, it is a part of the more dominant pamor from which it emerges. Sometimes a bad flaw will be filled with a strip of pamor & the seller will name it as "pamor alip" , I suppose that's OK if he can convince the buyer that it was all intentional.

The welding flaw that is usually described as "anak sungai" in some Malay keris usually occurs in blades with pamor miring where the construction of the pamor requires a weld that joins two bars of manipulated material, when this welded joint fails and a cold shut results in the finished work, that cold shut gets named as "anak sungai". An "anak sungai" can occur in any blade where the material has been folded and welded, but wherever it does occur it is just a polite name for a cold shut in the welding work.

The term "anak sungai" means a small tributary of a larger stream, and that cold shut running down the middle of the blade looks just like a little wandering creek or brook.

In your photos I can see what could be referred to as an anak sungai in the first blade, but since this blade has no pamor, we cannot call it "pamor anak sungai". In the other blades I also cannot see any pamor, nor can I see any marks that resemble either an alip or an anak sungai.

In respect of the use of the English word "random" in reference to a pamor motif. When we consider a blade to have a "random" pamor motif, it is a pamor that has been made by repeated folding & welding but without any manipulation, ie, a pure mlumah pamor, wos (beras) wutah or ngulit semangko. In Javanese we call this random pattern a "tiban" pamor motif; the word "tiban" means something that has come down or fallen, in the case of a tiban pamor motif, that pamor motif has come down from above, ie from the hand of God, it is not an intended pamor motif created by the maker.

16th June 2017, 06:35 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Apart from the unusual arrangement of the "fullers", and using Adni's reference as an ID guide, the Ron Da Nunut is also very unusual to my eye...specifically that nothing protrudes beyond the edge of the blade but it is "within". Here is Henri's keris; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=inlaid+keris I have seen another 9 luk version of the type too. Gavin Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 16th June 2017 at 09:31 AM. Reason: Additional link

8th November 2023, 01:08 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Mystery solved some years ago, Jambi is the origins. A couple of others crept into the collection since 2017 too. Those either side carry Alif pamor. Attached Images

8th November 2023, 08:44 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Gavin, would a close-up of the "alif" pamor be possible?

14th November 2023, 09:46 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Hey Gavin. I guess you missed Alan's request. I would like to see that close-up as well because i cannot really see ANY pamor on any of these blades. Thanks!

17th November 2023, 01:17 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Thank you very much Gavin, I do appreciate you providing both your text and the image, however, I am mystified. Perhaps you might be able to give us a little bit of the back story on how, where or who you sourced this information from? I am familiar with the alif, & also the problems surrounding that letter ( & other letters). In the context of bladed weaponry, the word pamor indicates metal that has been mixed, your image in post 18 is a mark, it is not pamor. What I believe I can see in your post 18 image is an incision, it might be a flaw, it might be something else, but it is not any sort of pamor motif. The line in the center of the first blade you posted is a cold shut, a flaw, it is not pamor. Where pamor alif --- or more correctly in BI & Malay, "alip" --- does occur, it has the form of one of the ways in which the letter alif can be written, and it is normally an inclusion in a more dominant pamor, usually an intended inclusion, but it can occur accidentally.The main thing is, it is a part of the more dominant pamor from which it emerges. Sometimes a bad flaw will be filled with a strip of pamor & the seller will name it as "pamor alip" , I suppose that's OK if he can convince the buyer that it was all intentional. The welding flaw that is usually described as "anak sungai" in some Malay keris usually occurs in blades with pamor miring where the construction of the pamor requires a weld that joins two bars of manipulated material, when this welded joint fails and a cold shut results in the finished work, that cold shut gets named as "anak sungai". An "anak sungai" can occur in any blade where the material has been folded and welded, but wherever it does occur it is just a polite name for a cold shut in the welding work. The term "anak sungai" means a small tributary of a larger stream, and that cold shut running down the middle of the blade looks just like a little wandering creek or brook. In your photos I can see what could be referred to as an anak sungai in the first blade, but since this blade has no pamor, we cannot call it "pamor anak sungai". In the other blades I also cannot see any pamor, nor can I see any marks that resemble either an alip or an anak sungai. In respect of the use of the English word "random" in reference to a pamor motif. When we consider a blade to have a "random" pamor motif, it is a pamor that has been made by repeated folding & welding but without any manipulation, ie, a pure mlumah pamor, wos (beras) wutah or ngulit semangko. In Javanese we call this random pattern a "tiban" pamor motif; the word "tiban" means something that has come down or fallen, in the case of a tiban pamor motif, that pamor motif has come down from above, ie from the hand of God, it is not an intended pamor motif created by the maker.