Old Tajong or Coteng???

[BSMStar]

Micheal,

I do not know very much about these... I have a silver one that I would like to know more about too... I do not believe it falls into either of the above categories.

[nechesh]

Michael, i don't know all that much about keris on the peninsula side, but i must say i love this one. Any chance of some better pics of the blade? It does seem to me to fit more clearly in the tajong catagory than coteng, but it is an unusual one. I am sure that some of the peninsula crowd will have better info for you.

[Alam Shah]

VVV, your's looks like an 18th Century coteng hilt. But your sheath form is unusual.

Reference:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...ran_pekaka.htm

BSMStar, your's is a coteng...a pretty one.

Some write-up on Tajong and Coteng
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...ion/patani.htm

Some other examples...
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...bum.php&page=9

Hope it helps...

[VVV]

Thanks Alam Shah,

I forgot to look in the article of Cédric le Dauphin that is referred to on the great reference site you linked to. I will do so later tonight.
At first glance the conclusions of the hilt evolution in the Le Dauphin article seems to differ from the ones in Spirit of Wood?
But I have to check if that's the case later.

Below is an additional picture of the blade to Nechesh.
No visible pamor as you can see (dapur Pandai Saras?).

I also have the silver Coteng version but I have heard that the oldest hilts are made of wood.
Is that correct?

Michael

[BluErf]

Hi,

VVV's keris is a coteng. The hilt does not have a beard, and has a very 'flat' head. Tajongs have boxier heads and a beard. This coteng is unusual in that it has that highly exaggerated garuda mungkur at the back of its crown. The sheath is of a very old form. Its amazing it survived. Please take extreme good care of it because it is very rare. Try not to do anything drastic to it please. The blade is of the pandai saras form. However, most cotengs I've seen do not come with pandai saras blades. They come with this sort of blade:

http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/

Hence, there is a possibility (I'm not 100% sure) that this piece may be 'put together'. Even then, its well-fitted, so it still looks good. Some Bugis-influenced blades can also be found in coteng kerises.

Cotengs and tajongs are very closely related. In some cases, they are almost hard to tell apart:

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

The above hilt is boxy like a tajong, but has no beard. Even more confusing - the sheath form is usually associated with cotengs.

BSMStar's hilt is probably a modern reproduction made in Indonesia. The beak is not too correct, and the "front-view" proportions is not quite correct. The hilt was probably made based on a photo, because the proportions are more or less correct when viewed from the side, but not from the top. Plus, the motifs on the hilt looks very S. Sumatran, not N Malayan.

[VVV]

Hi BlueErf,

Thanks for your comments.
I agree with your way to differ the Coteng from the Tajong but after reading Spirit of Wood I am confused. Do you have the book?
The Tajong 1 in their evolution of Hulu Tajong is just like a Coteng, even called Tajong 1 Hulu Coteng, but still is described as a Tajong.
On the blade I also agree but can assure you that I at least haven't fiddled with it.
It fits perfect in the scabbard so if some exchage has been done maybe it's a change of only the hilt?
But in this interesting thread I noticed a Coteng (DA Henkel's) that have a similar blade as mine?
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001218.html

So maybe it could be original?

Michael

[VVV]

I have now been able to check the source of the link that Alam Shah shared

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...ran_pekaka.htm

It's seems to my eyes as if the article from Cédric Le Dauphin is using the pictures from the old web site of D A Henkel on Peninsular Keris as illustration on the evolution of the Tajong?
BUT one hilt is then mislabeled and that's the one resembling mine which is dated 17th C at DA Henkel's site and 18th C in the article of Le Dauphin?
In the book Spirit of Wood it's dated pre 18th C.
I presume the change of dates is based on C Le Dauphin's own research and that he disagrees with the conclusions of D A Henkel, Nik Rashidin Nik Hussein as well as the authors of the book?
The article of Le Dauphin is very well written and impressive so I guess he has his reasons for changing the dating?

Michael

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by VVV

Hi BlueErf,

Thanks for your comments.
I agree with your way to differ the Coteng from the Tajong but after reading Spirit of Wood I am confused. Do you have the book?
The Tajong 1 in their evolution of Hulu Tajong is just like a Coteng, even called Tajong 1 Hulu Coteng, but still is described as a Tajong.
On the blade I also agree but can assure you that I at least haven't fiddled with it.
It fits perfect in the scabbard so if some exchage has been done maybe it's a change of only the hilt?
But in this interesting thread I noticed a Coteng (DA Henkel's) that have a similar blade as mine?
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001218.html

So maybe it could be original?

Michael

Hi Michael,

Yes I have the spirit of wood book. The tajong and coteng are very closely related. It is almost certain that they arose from the same original form, but for some reason evolved differently. The coteng form would seem to be the more primitive form. I think it really depends on how one wants to classify such hilts. I know there are people who consider cotengs a form of tajong. Well, I'd just leave it as 'they're closely related'. I can't say much about the dating except that there's a lot of guess-work and gut feel in those.

Blade-wise, the old cotengs do not have pandai saras blades. Dave's blade is not a pandai saras. Its a form of bahari blade. Note that it has no kembang kacang, and does not have the diamond profile that extends through the ganja. And yes, bahari is the other form of blade found in cotengs.

Your sheath form is the same as Paul's example (the ivory hilted one with the broken nose). Your sheath has suffered some damage to the dauns (the 'leaves' at both end to the sheath), but it is still in quite good condition.

The cotengs are found in the Songkhla/Singora area in present day southern Thailand. They are generally found in areas North of where Tajongs would be found. Crudely speaking, North yields more cotengs, South yields more tajongs. It's not a very big area, hence making cotengs one of the rarest keris forms around. There are quite a fair bit of variation in blade and sheath forms that are not properly documented, so we are quite 'in the dark'. The amount of variations almost suggest that each district may have a slightly different form of the keris.

And finally, yes, your coteng could be original. At any rate, please maintain it well for posterity! Remember to use wood oil (with oil like "Old English") a few times a year, and clean the blade with light neutral oil (wipe the blade dry of the oil). Sorry for nagging, but you are in possession of a very rare specimen (even amongst the rare cotengs).

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by BluErf

BSMStar's hilt is probably a modern reproduction made in Indonesia. The beak is not too correct, and the "front-view" proportions is not quite correct. The hilt was probably made based on a photo, because the proportions are more or less correct when viewed from the side, but not from the top. Plus, the motifs on the hilt looks very S. Sumatran, not N Malayan.

I believe my ignorance is so bad that I do not have to plead ignorance in this area...

It may be my understanding or my definition of "reproduction"... but it seems that this Hulu certainly was not made to "fool" anyone into thinking this is an old Tajong or Coteng. I have never seen any thing like it before or since, so I am not sure what is being reproduced (or faked). It would seem to be something that was custom made? (It is made of silver, covering over a gray-black horn material.) Do you see a lot of this exact Hulu around? Or is it something more unique?

Being modern, that's OK (although, it took a good cleaning to get all of the oxidation off, some being copper based oxides at the "wing" joints - so it has been around a little while, a few hairline cracks, dents) ... it would seem that if this is a "typical" modern reproduction, one would expect to see more of them. Or is this just a custom piece that was made awhile back, that is not a "true" Tajong or Coteng. It could not have been "cheap" to make... I have seen some real pieces of junk out there, this one fairly nice (and fairly large too).

I like VVV's Hulu too!!!

Love these bird hilts!

[nechesh]

I am with you on this one B, i don't think it is correct to refer to your hilt as a "reproduction", just another in the vast myiad of variations to be found in the art of the keris and keris dress. And it is a very nicely crafted hilt indeed.

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

I believe my ignorance is so bad that I do not have to plead ignorance in this area...

It may be my understanding or my definition of "reproduction"... but it seems that this Hulu certainly was not made to "fool" anyone into thinking this is an old Tajong or Coteng. I have never seen any thing like it before or since, so I am not sure what is being reproduced (or faked). It would seem to be something that was custom made? (It is made of silver, covering over a gray-black horn material.) Do you see a lot of this exact Hulu around? Or is it something more unique?

Being modern, that's OK (although, it took a good cleaning to get all of the oxidation off, some being copper based oxides at the "wing" joints - so it has been around a little while, a few hairline cracks, dents) ... it would seem that if this is a "typical" modern reproduction, one would expect to see more of them. Or is this just a custom piece that was made awhile back, that is not a "true" Tajong or Coteng. It could not have been "cheap" to make... I have seen some real pieces of junk out there, this one fairly nice (and fairly large too).

I like VVV's Hulu too!!!

Love these bird hilts!

Well, 'reproduction' does not mean it is mass produced. It could be a custom reproduction. If one looks at the traditional forms and place of origin, this silver hilt would be an 'oddity'. True, it could be be the 'first of a new genre', but until we see this sort of hilt widely adopted, it would continue to be an 'oddity'. Its not to say that this hilt is bad quality or anything, but just to make it clear to everyone what we are looking at, especially if we are talking about the archetypal cotengs and tajongs.