American Sword with 1803 Style Cross Guard

Cathey · 19th May 2017, 04:06 AM

Hi Guys

I am not a collector of American swords, however I have acquired five over the years and this one has me a little confused. When you look at the cross guard it is very like a typical 1803 British Infantry sword. It does have Warranted on the blade, so my thought is that perhaps it was made by Gill for the American market.

Nationality: American
Date: 1803 pattern?
Maker/Retailer: E. PLURIBUS UNUM
Overall Length: In Scabbard 38” 96.7cm, Sword only 37 ½” 95.4 cm
Blade length: 32 ¼” 82 cm
Blade widest point: 1 7/8” 4.7 cm
Hilt widest point: 5” 12.4 cm
Inside grip length: 3 ½” 8.9 cm
Marks, etc.: Warranted, etched eagle with the words "E Pluribus Unum.

Description
American 1803 Officer’s sword, large curved blade with broad fuller, 1803 style cross guard with eagle head pommel, grooved bone or ivory grip, chipped at the pommel. Some blue and gilt left on the blade and the etching is very fine. Brass mounted leather scabbard in very good solid condition.

Has anyone seen something like this before, I could not find any reference to it in The American Sword 1775-1945 Harold L Peterson.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 19th May 2017, 05:11 AM

Cathey, you by far are one of the most discerning collectors of fascinating anomalies. I have always thought the M1803 British infantry and flank company swords among the most attractive and interesting sabres of the Georgian period.
It is important to note here that until the embargos of 1810, officers in America were still culturally British, and British firms still supplied swords to them.
In reviewing Andrew Mowbray's "American Eagle Pommel Swords, 1793-1830" (1988), on p.50 it is noted that most eagle head swords were made for the American market, and there were considerable numbers of variations in the styles of heads.
This particular crested eagle head is most remarkably similar to those used by William Ketland & Co. of Birmingham, whose American agents were either the Ketland brothers in Philadelphia or the G.Upson Co. in New York.

In a photo of several of the Ketland swords, one with the same flowing backstrap and crested eagle head is seen in the left of the frame. In the photo a quartered slot type guard is seen as typical on most 1803s while this example has a more stylish curled brace pattern.

The 'warranted' term in the banner was actually used by virtually all Birmingham makers of this period following Thomas Gill's lead. Actually he had begun this practice with his M1788 light cavalry sabres, but they read 'warranted never to fail'. Later simply the word warranted was incorporated into the blade motif.

This sabre can easily be dated to c. 1803 to around 1810 and appears to have been a Ketland product with their distinct crested eagle head.

Usually the bannered motif on reverse of blade will have maker or outfitters name, or sometimes the initials can be found underside of guard near blade.

This is what I have found, but Glen is the expert here on American swords, so hope he will come in on this.

drac2k · 19th May 2017, 05:13 AM

Beautiful Sword! I'm not very knowledgeable on these items, but I think I can push you in the right direction on a couple of points.
First, "E Pluribus Unum," is Latin for Out of Many, One, referring to the relationship of the U.S. States to the Federal Government and as such, it is not the sword maker.
Next, I believe what you have there is an 1805 pattern sword, modeled after the British 1803.Finally, here is the trickiest part yet, the maker; based on looking at various American Eagle head swords, I believe it could be made by William Ketland And Co.
The only information that I can absolutely stand behind as valid is that you have a wonderful sword!

Hotspur · 19th May 2017, 05:49 AM

A nice complete rig. The crested eagle backstrap variations number in the thousands. Overall, a grand free for all as far as officers went aside from some very basic reglations. I would place the sword later than the blade and guard. Parts used up for decades. Add some art and an eagle then sell it to the yanks. Quite old (decades) blades being used into the 1840s or so. I would list this one in the 1820s and maybe for a mounted artillery officer. Some list the form earlier such as Simon Rycroftt of americanswords.com. Anyway you are spot on re the guard type. Warranted used by many makers both in England and Germany. My French Berger targeted for the US with the word Warranted.

There were very few official regulation eagle pommel swords, while there were a tremendous variation used for four decades or so by our militia. As there was not much of a standing federal army, every large town had a militia and that practice still very much of the same principles back to, well, forever.

Out of many, one. The U.S. motto. A line I was to open a preamble for a Mark Cloke eagle page. He had been busy parenting and I goofing off between medical stuff.

There was a federal request in the mid 1830s for both a spadroon for the infantry and sabre for the artillery. Ames was the US maker. That screaming eagle from Ames then widely copied and remanufactured in England. Then there was a regulation naval form for the 1840s. The many thousands of others used by everyone from cadets to diplomats.

To evaluate the scope of eagle pommel types, browse this old work folder I uploaded for all
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...mM?usp=sharing

Note, an old work in progress with few but me understanding my categories. I may eventually produce something more cohesive with annotations. This is basically an old clipboard

My current upload dump to drive yet more expansive.

Books of interest for eagle lovers are E Andrew Mowbray's old testament American Eagle Pommel Sword: The Early Years 1794-1830
ISBN-10: 0917218361
ISBN-13: 978-0917218361

Mowbray the younger with Norm Flayderman producing American Swords from the Philip Medicus Collection
ISBN-10: 0917218787
ISBN-13: 978-0917218781

Peter Tuite US Naval Officers: Their Swords and Dirks
ISBN-10: 1931464162
ISBN-13: 978-1931464161

Hartzler Silver Mounted Swords, The Lattimer Family Collection
ASIN: B000TBGWMA

Yet more books with some susch as Rankin's naval stuff, Don Furr American swords. I'd write a book but would likely upset some or otherwise be rewriting other's work.

Cheers

GC

Hotspur · 19th May 2017, 06:24 AM

re Ketland and crested backstrap examples. I say bite me and I disagree. We use the term for convenience and I use ketbck for my own file (see link) but only because Mowbray lists it as similar to the floating pommel with the ridge we see on the early "Ketlands" My old clipboard ketbcks
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...W8?usp=sharing

I can show you a similar example in the same book in the US section towards the back and then show you a copy of that marked to Widmann of Philadelphia. A sword manufactured in Germany. So tell me why we should list a German crested backstrap as a Ketland.

My crested backstrap below (and in the folder).

Cheers

GC

Hotspur · 19th May 2017, 06:29 AM

btw, I have become quite as mad as the mecurial artists doing the old blue&gilt. Follow the patterns to find the shops and sellers.

Honest guys, the crested backstrap eagles are post 1812 war, which puts them later than the introduction of the 1803 guard.

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall · 19th May 2017, 08:32 AM

Actually I did see the Widmann of Philadelphia examples in Mowbray, but when it was noted these were from around 1840s, I wondered why a hilt so close in character to the British M1803 would be used that late. While British makers still produced for American clients prior to the War of 1812, that patronage did not seem likely after that (at least not until the Civil War).

The 'warranted' on the blade as far as I had known was included in blade motif as mentioned from the so called 'sword scandals' of the 1780s and into early years of 1800s involving British reactions to German blade imports vs. British produced blades. Thomas Gill led by proclaiming the quality of his blades above German, and marking his blades 'warranted never to fail'. Other makers in Birmingham followed but used only the word warranted. This practice went on into about the first decade of the 19th century, but seems to have ceased in those years by about 1815.

It seems ironic that Germany would be using the same term in their products after it had been used initially to pronounce British superiority to their blades. I had no idea it was then geared toward US markets.

The case for parts and blades being used for years by various vendors and makers makes sense, and may well account for these kinds of anomalies. As noted, there were so many variations of the eagle heads and other components, and few regulations for officers swords, so there again the identification dilemma seems rather understandable.

I appreciate Glen's insight here, and while it seemed logical to presume the Ketland & Co. possibility, the mitigating circumstances he has described present other probabilities at hand as well.

No matter what, this sword is a beauty!!!

PS....Glen thank you for the well detailed references and bibliography. It really helps for those who wish to research further on these forms.

Hotspur · 19th May 2017, 02:14 PM

My overall outlook is not that Mowbray and others since draw a parallel to the old floating pommels and those with backstraps but even his thoughts 30 years ago distinguish between the two types in the Ketland chapter, only later in the book bringing up a possibility.

If you peruse my eagle clipboard in the first reply you will see I break up the crested into orig&bck variants of crested pommels. In looking at the ketbck section of my clipboard linked in the second post, you will see a myriad of late attributes of the 30s and 40s using virtually the same pommel with bckstrp. Note in that folder several with 1803 guards and variants of that, along with a very few with old slotted type. Think about it.

If one then moves to the new testament, aka the Norm Flayderman&Stuart Mowbray book of the Medicus Collection, we are presented a more linear outlook with only confirmed origin when available. In the master folder of my first post, note a folder that is listed as Spies. A.W. Spies went to England after the 1812 war as an apprentice, returning to the US as an import retailer in New York City. If you look through both my Spies Folder and the ketbck folder you will see what I mean about the longevity of using up old blue&gilt blades well into the 1840s, still emblazoned with the word Warranted.

Moving on to a folder on my master clipboard is a folder listed as ketscrmng. These are the open mouth screaming eagles copying the 1830s Ames bird. Then the OrigKetFrm folder devoted mostly to the floating pommels of the Ketland chapter in the elder Mowbray's old testament.

So, long story short; Sure, attribute all crested eagles as having a Ketland origin but that is actually foolishness. I use Ket as a prefix in sorting but the realize the immense scope of variance and origin spanning the decades. It was but a single example marked Ketland that dubbed the old floating pommel as the origin but at the same time realize the casting was not by Ketland, who sourced shops throughout Birmingham. A random sword affixed to the Ketland story then spawning the widespread use of guilt by association.

So, we are reviewing the 1803 guarded eagle from several viewpoints but break down the components into the contexts of realities. Parts used up after the war and the development of the crested bckstrp variants. Note that the majority of those better fall into the 1820s regulations of langet type sabres and straight blades, with the bulk of those proving to be much later than the war of 1812.

Cheers

GC

My floater, of the original "Ketland" form

Hotspur · 19th May 2017, 02:43 PM

RE Widmann and the Mowbray book. The example is but one sword, and a suffix to the American maker chapters, not part of the main Widmann chapter. It is easy to lump a page into the pages before or after but it is important to look at each evidence carefully.

Paraphrasing that single page (without going to open the book), that crested bckstrp shown is listed as having a possibility of American furbishing. Bazelon, in an old ASoAC article shows another single example marked to Widmann on the guard.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9A...ew?usp=sharing
British? Maybe. Composite? Composite done by Widmann? A wholly manufactured product of Germany? Widmann did seem prefer German sourced parts. However, I digress. Do though note Bazelon's brief on trade blades.

The Germans copied the British, the British copied Germans, the US bought from both and France (many made in Germany), the British copied the American Ames gaper/screamer, the Germans copied Widmann traits; on and on.

The use of Warranted on Solingen blades seen until iron proof, then proved, then eisenhauer; of course a marketing ploy.

Cheers

GC

Hotspur · 19th May 2017, 04:22 PM

Another gasp here regarding eagles with backstraps. It should be wholly apparent that the introduction of swords with backstraps were nothing new by the advent of the eagle pommel swords. The mechanics of them simply afford a much stronger weapon for practical use.

IIRC, it is in discussion opposite the Dyer eagle pommel where Mowbray mentions the aberration of that same eagle type with backstraps thought to be postwar. Confusion now arrives to me in acquiring one such with a clearly marked Woolley Deakin&Co. That could be an argument (1806ish) that my example disagrees with Mowbray's thoughts but at the same time, my eagle may well have been cast in America and a Woolley blade used later on. It is very hard to be sure, so we are left with trends and other examples of the form.

Was my eagle below assembled in England or in upstate New York?

Cheers

GC

Jim McDougall · 19th May 2017, 04:39 PM

Very well explained Glen. Again I very much appreciate your thorough and detailed presentations along with explanations in reasoning out the many assumptions and deviations which may mislead researchers less familiar with these forms.......including myself. Thank you again, it is great to learn more on these important eagle head swords.

19th May 2017, 04:06 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	American Sword with 1803 Style Cross Guard Hi Guys I am not a collector of American swords, however I have acquired five over the years and this one has me a little confused. When you look at the cross guard it is very like a typical 1803 British Infantry sword. It does have Warranted on the blade, so my thought is that perhaps it was made by Gill for the American market. Nationality: American Date: 1803 pattern? Maker/Retailer: E. PLURIBUS UNUM Overall Length: In Scabbard 38” 96.7cm, Sword only 37 ½” 95.4 cm Blade length: 32 ¼” 82 cm Blade widest point: 1 7/8” 4.7 cm Hilt widest point: 5” 12.4 cm Inside grip length: 3 ½” 8.9 cm Marks, etc.: Warranted, etched eagle with the words "E Pluribus Unum. Description American 1803 Officer’s sword, large curved blade with broad fuller, 1803 style cross guard with eagle head pommel, grooved bone or ivory grip, chipped at the pommel. Some blue and gilt left on the blade and the etching is very fine. Brass mounted leather scabbard in very good solid condition. Has anyone seen something like this before, I could not find any reference to it in The American Sword 1775-1945 Harold L Peterson. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

19th May 2017, 05:11 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Cathey, you by far are one of the most discerning collectors of fascinating anomalies. I have always thought the M1803 British infantry and flank company swords among the most attractive and interesting sabres of the Georgian period. It is important to note here that until the embargos of 1810, officers in America were still culturally British, and British firms still supplied swords to them. In reviewing Andrew Mowbray's "American Eagle Pommel Swords, 1793-1830" (1988), on p.50 it is noted that most eagle head swords were made for the American market, and there were considerable numbers of variations in the styles of heads. This particular crested eagle head is most remarkably similar to those used by William Ketland & Co. of Birmingham, whose American agents were either the Ketland brothers in Philadelphia or the G.Upson Co. in New York. In a photo of several of the Ketland swords, one with the same flowing backstrap and crested eagle head is seen in the left of the frame. In the photo a quartered slot type guard is seen as typical on most 1803s while this example has a more stylish curled brace pattern. The 'warranted' term in the banner was actually used by virtually all Birmingham makers of this period following Thomas Gill's lead. Actually he had begun this practice with his M1788 light cavalry sabres, but they read 'warranted never to fail'. Later simply the word warranted was incorporated into the blade motif. This sabre can easily be dated to c. 1803 to around 1810 and appears to have been a Ketland product with their distinct crested eagle head. Usually the bannered motif on reverse of blade will have maker or outfitters name, or sometimes the initials can be found underside of guard near blade. This is what I have found, but Glen is the expert here on American swords, so hope he will come in on this. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th May 2017 at 05:26 AM.

19th May 2017, 06:24 AM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	re Ketland and crested backstrap examples. I say bite me and I disagree. We use the term for convenience and I use ketbck for my own file (see link) but only because Mowbray lists it as similar to the floating pommel with the ridge we see on the early "Ketlands" My old clipboard ketbcks https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...W8?usp=sharing I can show you a similar example in the same book in the US section towards the back and then show you a copy of that marked to Widmann of Philadelphia. A sword manufactured in Germany. So tell me why we should list a German crested backstrap as a Ketland. My crested backstrap below (and in the folder). Cheers GC Attached Images

19th May 2017, 02:14 PM	#8
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	My overall outlook is not that Mowbray and others since draw a parallel to the old floating pommels and those with backstraps but even his thoughts 30 years ago distinguish between the two types in the Ketland chapter, only later in the book bringing up a possibility. If you peruse my eagle clipboard in the first reply you will see I break up the crested into orig&bck variants of crested pommels. In looking at the ketbck section of my clipboard linked in the second post, you will see a myriad of late attributes of the 30s and 40s using virtually the same pommel with bckstrp. Note in that folder several with 1803 guards and variants of that, along with a very few with old slotted type. Think about it. If one then moves to the new testament, aka the Norm Flayderman&Stuart Mowbray book of the Medicus Collection, we are presented a more linear outlook with only confirmed origin when available. In the master folder of my first post, note a folder that is listed as Spies. A.W. Spies went to England after the 1812 war as an apprentice, returning to the US as an import retailer in New York City. If you look through both my Spies Folder and the ketbck folder you will see what I mean about the longevity of using up old blue&gilt blades well into the 1840s, still emblazoned with the word Warranted. Moving on to a folder on my master clipboard is a folder listed as ketscrmng. These are the open mouth screaming eagles copying the 1830s Ames bird. Then the OrigKetFrm folder devoted mostly to the floating pommels of the Ketland chapter in the elder Mowbray's old testament. So, long story short; Sure, attribute all crested eagles as having a Ketland origin but that is actually foolishness. I use Ket as a prefix in sorting but the realize the immense scope of variance and origin spanning the decades. It was but a single example marked Ketland that dubbed the old floating pommel as the origin but at the same time realize the casting was not by Ketland, who sourced shops throughout Birmingham. A random sword affixed to the Ketland story then spawning the widespread use of guilt by association. So, we are reviewing the 1803 guarded eagle from several viewpoints but break down the components into the contexts of realities. Parts used up after the war and the development of the crested bckstrp variants. Note that the majority of those better fall into the 1820s regulations of langet type sabres and straight blades, with the bulk of those proving to be much later than the war of 1812. Cheers GC My floater, of the original "Ketland" form Attached Images

19th May 2017, 04:22 PM	#10
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Another gasp here regarding eagles with backstraps. It should be wholly apparent that the introduction of swords with backstraps were nothing new by the advent of the eagle pommel swords. The mechanics of them simply afford a much stronger weapon for practical use. IIRC, it is in discussion opposite the Dyer eagle pommel where Mowbray mentions the aberration of that same eagle type with backstraps thought to be postwar. Confusion now arrives to me in acquiring one such with a clearly marked Woolley Deakin&Co. That could be an argument (1806ish) that my example disagrees with Mowbray's thoughts but at the same time, my eagle may well have been cast in America and a Woolley blade used later on. It is very hard to be sure, so we are left with trends and other examples of the form. Was my eagle below assembled in England or in upstate New York? Cheers GC Attached Images

19th May 2017, 05:13 AM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Beautiful Sword! I'm not very knowledgeable on these items, but I think I can push you in the right direction on a couple of points. First, "E Pluribus Unum," is Latin for Out of Many, One, referring to the relationship of the U.S. States to the Federal Government and as such, it is not the sword maker. Next, I believe what you have there is an 1805 pattern sword, modeled after the British 1803.Finally, here is the trickiest part yet, the maker; based on looking at various American Eagle head swords, I believe it could be made by William Ketland And Co. The only information that I can absolutely stand behind as valid is that you have a wonderful sword!

19th May 2017, 05:49 AM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	A nice complete rig. The crested eagle backstrap variations number in the thousands. Overall, a grand free for all as far as officers went aside from some very basic reglations. I would place the sword later than the blade and guard. Parts used up for decades. Add some art and an eagle then sell it to the yanks. Quite old (decades) blades being used into the 1840s or so. I would list this one in the 1820s and maybe for a mounted artillery officer. Some list the form earlier such as Simon Rycroftt of americanswords.com. Anyway you are spot on re the guard type. Warranted used by many makers both in England and Germany. My French Berger targeted for the US with the word Warranted. There were very few official regulation eagle pommel swords, while there were a tremendous variation used for four decades or so by our militia. As there was not much of a standing federal army, every large town had a militia and that practice still very much of the same principles back to, well, forever. Out of many, one. The U.S. motto. A line I was to open a preamble for a Mark Cloke eagle page. He had been busy parenting and I goofing off between medical stuff. There was a federal request in the mid 1830s for both a spadroon for the infantry and sabre for the artillery. Ames was the US maker. That screaming eagle from Ames then widely copied and remanufactured in England. Then there was a regulation naval form for the 1840s. The many thousands of others used by everyone from cadets to diplomats. To evaluate the scope of eagle pommel types, browse this old work folder I uploaded for all https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...mM?usp=sharing Note, an old work in progress with few but me understanding my categories. I may eventually produce something more cohesive with annotations. This is basically an old clipboard My current upload dump to drive yet more expansive. Books of interest for eagle lovers are E Andrew Mowbray's old testament American Eagle Pommel Sword: The Early Years 1794-1830 ISBN-10: 0917218361 ISBN-13: 978-0917218361 Mowbray the younger with Norm Flayderman producing American Swords from the Philip Medicus Collection ISBN-10: 0917218787 ISBN-13: 978-0917218781 Peter Tuite US Naval Officers: Their Swords and Dirks ISBN-10: 1931464162 ISBN-13: 978-1931464161 Hartzler Silver Mounted Swords, The Lattimer Family Collection ASIN: B000TBGWMA Yet more books with some susch as Rankin's naval stuff, Don Furr American swords. I'd write a book but would likely upset some or otherwise be rewriting other's work. Cheers GC

19th May 2017, 06:29 AM	#6
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	btw, I have become quite as mad as the mecurial artists doing the old blue&gilt. Follow the patterns to find the shops and sellers. Honest guys, the crested backstrap eagles are post 1812 war, which puts them later than the introduction of the 1803 guard. Cheers GC

19th May 2017, 08:32 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Actually I did see the Widmann of Philadelphia examples in Mowbray, but when it was noted these were from around 1840s, I wondered why a hilt so close in character to the British M1803 would be used that late. While British makers still produced for American clients prior to the War of 1812, that patronage did not seem likely after that (at least not until the Civil War). The 'warranted' on the blade as far as I had known was included in blade motif as mentioned from the so called 'sword scandals' of the 1780s and into early years of 1800s involving British reactions to German blade imports vs. British produced blades. Thomas Gill led by proclaiming the quality of his blades above German, and marking his blades 'warranted never to fail'. Other makers in Birmingham followed but used only the word warranted. This practice went on into about the first decade of the 19th century, but seems to have ceased in those years by about 1815. It seems ironic that Germany would be using the same term in their products after it had been used initially to pronounce British superiority to their blades. I had no idea it was then geared toward US markets. The case for parts and blades being used for years by various vendors and makers makes sense, and may well account for these kinds of anomalies. As noted, there were so many variations of the eagle heads and other components, and few regulations for officers swords, so there again the identification dilemma seems rather understandable. I appreciate Glen's insight here, and while it seemed logical to presume the Ketland & Co. possibility, the mitigating circumstances he has described present other probabilities at hand as well. No matter what, this sword is a beauty!!! PS....Glen thank you for the well detailed references and bibliography. It really helps for those who wish to research further on these forms.

19th May 2017, 02:43 PM	#9
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	RE Widmann and the Mowbray book. The example is but one sword, and a suffix to the American maker chapters, not part of the main Widmann chapter. It is easy to lump a page into the pages before or after but it is important to look at each evidence carefully. Paraphrasing that single page (without going to open the book), that crested bckstrp shown is listed as having a possibility of American furbishing. Bazelon, in an old ASoAC article shows another single example marked to Widmann on the guard. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9A...ew?usp=sharing British? Maybe. Composite? Composite done by Widmann? A wholly manufactured product of Germany? Widmann did seem prefer German sourced parts. However, I digress. Do though note Bazelon's brief on trade blades. The Germans copied the British, the British copied Germans, the US bought from both and France (many made in Germany), the British copied the American Ames gaper/screamer, the Germans copied Widmann traits; on and on. The use of Warranted on Solingen blades seen until iron proof, then proved, then eisenhauer; of course a marketing ploy. Cheers GC

19th May 2017, 04:39 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Very well explained Glen. Again I very much appreciate your thorough and detailed presentations along with explanations in reasoning out the many assumptions and deviations which may mislead researchers less familiar with these forms.......including myself. Thank you again, it is great to learn more on these important eagle head swords.