European dagger help needed

La Gargouille · 23rd February 2017, 02:54 AM

Hello!

I have been a silent participant for a while now, and I believe this is my first active participation.

I recently bought this Dagger, of wich I have little information about.
So I come here to ask for your expertise to enlighten me about what you can tell by the images bellow.

The dagger was bought in a french antiquary, and came with a certificate dating it to the late XVII Century. It does not seem to have any sort of markings.

Thanks in advance!

MAC

Cerjak · 23rd February 2017, 09:18 AM

Hi

This dagger has a type of pommel and guard that I have never seen on European dagger from this period.
I 'm sorry for this bad news but this dagger is at best a victorian production .
best

CERJAK

La Gargouille · 2nd March 2017, 12:34 PM

Thanks for you reply Cerjak.

I'm a bit disappointed, altough I always knew it seemed too good to be true...

However I feel that the seller indeed thought we was selling a XVII century item, based on an "expert's" evaluation. - I will warn him about the skills of "the expert" he recurs to...

Can this dagger by any chance BE from that period, but just NOT European?

Thanks for any help!

MAC

La Gargouille · 17th May 2017, 02:35 AM

Hello,

Does anyone seen any dagger similar to this one?

Thanks in advance!

MAC

RobertGuy · 18th May 2017, 09:25 AM

The fullers in the ricasso block remind me of those found on some Victorian Scottish basket hilts. I think the blade has been cut down from something older.

Lee · 18th May 2017, 02:08 PM

Though I fear the previous posters are correct about a much later date for this example on the basis of the grain and texture of the metal, overall condition and style, I would like to note that the lengthwise fullers along the edges of the ricasso area also appear in earlier blades, including some swords from the Alexandria Arsenal group inscribed with the equivalent of 1432.

In due course (such as when I next find it) I'll have to share a dagger I bought in my early days from an established dealer as coming from a fine highly regarded collection. Maybe the dealer was telling the truth and it was a dud from early in that collector's collecting...

fernando · 18th May 2017, 02:49 PM

Bem-vindo ao forum MAC

.
I am more one the side of those who suggest this is a modern setup.
The fullers appear to be, in my ignorance, a crude work to suggest earlier reality. Hopefuly Lee will find and share the example he mentioned and with it a good sign of authenticity of yours.

mariusgmioc · 18th May 2017, 03:00 PM

Hello,

While it is difficult to form an educated oppinion from the photos, there are some details in the photos that make me believe this is of rather recent manufacture, in other words a fake.

Regards,

Marius

Gonzalo G · 9th June 2017, 03:23 AM

It could have a shortened blade, in my perception. As for the guards, I don´t know if this could help. The picture is a fresco in the Aarhus Cathedral in Denmark, 15th Century.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th June 2017, 07:43 AM

Salaams Gonzalo That is a cracking piece of artwork showing the similar dagger form... Brilliantly placed !!
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi....

Below examples of the split quilon from the armour clad troopers sword and shown separately a Scottish Claymore sword...with split quilons. Regret unable to find daggers however, perhaps the Mediaeval form on the artwork is a sword?

23rd February 2017, 02:54 AM	#1
La Gargouille Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Portugal Posts: 3	European dagger help needed Hello! I have been a silent participant for a while now, and I believe this is my first active participation. I recently bought this Dagger, of wich I have little information about. So I come here to ask for your expertise to enlighten me about what you can tell by the images bellow. The dagger was bought in a french antiquary, and came with a certificate dating it to the late XVII Century. It does not seem to have any sort of markings. Thanks in advance! MAC Attached Images

17th May 2017, 02:35 AM	#4
La Gargouille Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Portugal Posts: 3	Help! Hello, Does anyone seen any dagger similar to this one? Thanks in advance! MAC

18th May 2017, 03:00 PM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello, While it is difficult to form an educated oppinion from the photos, there are some details in the photos that make me believe this is of rather recent manufacture, in other words a fake. Regards, Marius Last edited by mariusgmioc; 18th May 2017 at 04:26 PM.

9th June 2017, 03:23 AM	#9
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	It could have a shortened blade, in my perception. As for the guards, I don´t know if this could help. The picture is a fresco in the Aarhus Cathedral in Denmark, 15th Century. Attached Images

15th June 2017, 07:43 AM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Gonzalo That is a cracking piece of artwork showing the similar dagger form... Brilliantly placed !! Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.... Below examples of the split quilon from the armour clad troopers sword and shown separately a Scottish Claymore sword...with split quilons. Regret unable to find daggers however, perhaps the Mediaeval form on the artwork is a sword? Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 15th June 2017 at 08:47 AM.

23rd February 2017, 09:18 AM	#2
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Hi This dagger has a type of pommel and guard that I have never seen on European dagger from this period. I 'm sorry for this bad news but this dagger is at best a victorian production . best CERJAK

2nd March 2017, 12:34 PM	#3
La Gargouille Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Portugal Posts: 3	Thanks for you reply Cerjak. I'm a bit disappointed, altough I always knew it seemed too good to be true... However I feel that the seller indeed thought we was selling a XVII century item, based on an "expert's" evaluation. - I will warn him about the skills of "the expert" he recurs to... Can this dagger by any chance BE from that period, but just NOT European? Thanks for any help! MAC

18th May 2017, 09:25 AM	#5
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	The fullers in the ricasso block remind me of those found on some Victorian Scottish basket hilts. I think the blade has been cut down from something older.

18th May 2017, 02:08 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Though I fear the previous posters are correct about a much later date for this example on the basis of the grain and texture of the metal, overall condition and style, I would like to note that the lengthwise fullers along the edges of the ricasso area also appear in earlier blades, including some swords from the Alexandria Arsenal group inscribed with the equivalent of 1432. In due course (such as when I next find it) I'll have to share a dagger I bought in my early days from an established dealer as coming from a fine highly regarded collection. Maybe the dealer was telling the truth and it was a dud from early in that collector's collecting...

18th May 2017, 02:49 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bem-vindo ao forum MAC . I am more one the side of those who suggest this is a modern setup. The fullers appear to be, in my ignorance, a crude work to suggest earlier reality. Hopefuly Lee will find and share the example he mentioned and with it a good sign of authenticity of yours.