The flowers on the tulwar hilts

[Mercenary]

Some pictures:

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for the pictures.
I think the research should include other decorated things, than weapons only, as many of these things have been studied and researched far more than the weapons have.
I do realise that many collectors collect weapons, buy weapon books and study then, and that is that. For the ones who wants to go farther, studying other art items can be of a very big help.

[Jim McDougall]

"...they convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendencies of a period".
Bruno Thomas & Ortwin Gamber
"Jahrbuch des Kunsthistorischen"
Museums in Wien 1937-1955
As cited in p.73, "Imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor
from the State of Styria"
Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, 1992

Q.E.D.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I thought I had dug up an excellent reference when I stumbled upon the book by Amina Okada ~ "Imperial Mughal Painters" however it contained only half a dozen lightweight references somewhat unrelated to the central theme I have worked into this thread relating to Daro Shikoh...I did however rumble into one fact that Daro's son was captured by the forces of Aurangazeb and imprisoned whereupon he was slowly poisoned to death by poppies being soaked in water with which he had to drink...
Another powerful flower pictorially was the Lilly shown below with Shah Jehan along with a Firangi straight sword .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Perhaps a glance at similar decorative style to floral may indicate a sister to floral technique ~ That of sunburst ...Please see http://shastardhari.com/blog/ for an excellent rendition of the intricate sunburst design to certain tribal sword pommels. Quote" Sunburst symbology is often seen on Indian swords, shields and battle standards, it represents the ‘Sooraj Bansi’ or the Sun Dynasty of the Vedic warrior god Rama Avtar, the embodiment of the Kshatriya warrior." Unquote.

Shown below; Sunburst pommel designs.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Ibrahiim for bringing this link to our attention.
It is interesting reading, but unfortunately the author does only say that it is so, he does not give any evidence why it is so.
I think that when someone with an Indian name writes something, most believe in it, but I would like some more proof - why and from where does he know it?
As the author lives in the 21st century and not in the 17th or 18th century, he must give some proof of from where he has his knowledge.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Thank you Ibrahiim for bringing this link to our attention.
It is interesting reading, but unfortunately the author does only say that it is so, he does not give any evidence why it is so.
I think that when someone with an Indian name writes something, most believe in it, but I would like some more proof - why and from where does he know it?
As the author lives in the 21st century and not in the 17th or 18th century, he must give some proof of from where he has his knowledge.

I have to agree ..I was a bit despondent having ploughed through the entire works but the support work on Shah Jehan and on the painter fraternity of the Mughals was interesting.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim, researching means reading a lot, and a lot is of no 'interest', but all the same one learns something, and remembers most of it - hopefully:-).
The suns shown on the discs look quite different, and have a different number of rays, but I have not yet started to look into this part.

[Jim McDougall]

Research indeed is reading a lot for many, or for some, like myself, a great deal of 'browsing', and many findings are through pure serendipity. While using systematic approach in a networking type manner in order to reach key areas where context might hold clues or important data, sometimes those details are found in completely unrelated searches.

In some of the decoration and motif in Indian arms there do seem to be variations in the number of elements in images portrayed such as petals, or rays in the case of solar representation. However as far as I know, there has not been proof found that numeric instance is significant as far as certain symbolism etc. It is tempting to consider that there is such significance imbued, but aesthetics become a strong possibility as well. Some such things we may never know as the work changed in imitation over generations and what the original artisan intended is unknown.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There is of course another part to the equation; In respect of the attempted fusion in artwork and Islamic script and in the general subject of the Mystic involvement Daro Sikoh was attempting in bringing together the two religions of Hinduism and Islam there is plenty to be concerned about. Aurangzeb set out to annihilate the entire family of Daro Shikoh but not content with that destruction he ordered his artists to seek out and obliterate the records...Paintings were removed and destroyed; entire or huge parts of complete portfolios vanished. Where Islamic script was included it was painted out in gold paint. The records were smudged and history was given another spin contorting all that had transpired. What we are left with are remnants of the true story and it is for this reason that authors have so little to report...because it has been changed stolen and destroyed. That is the real reason why it is so difficult to fathom...

On a lighter note simple artwork of the Hindu style can be found in geometric subject matter in many Indian households for example in the cyclic form below...

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim, what I dont quite understand, is why you all the time write about Dara Sikoh and not about Jahangir - who was the one who started the interest about the flowers?

[Jim McDougall]

If I am understanding correctly, there was concern about the author of the linked article on teghas and examples of pommel discs bearing solar themes, in that his comments and observations were not supported by references and cites. It seems to me that in many writings on Indian arms, particularly those written from more of a traditional and theological posture by someone indoctrinated in the religion(s) being described, and as far as toward the sword, such academically oriented references are often not observed.

The original theme of this thread has been toward the study of the use of floral motif in tulwar motif, and whether certain symbolism might be present accordingly. The digression to certain astral themes in pommel discs has entered the discussion as some might instead have floral themes en suite with the hilt overall , and the variations are observed as such. We were looking for symbolic convention with such astral themes much in the same manner as floral motif.

While the floral interest used in motif and decoration may have begun early in the Mughal dynasties, it seems that the potential for closer examination into symbolism within these artistic creations was prevalently noted in the album of Dara Shikoh. Though he was not the first Mughal to lean toward syncretic relations between other religions and Islam, he more openly highlighted European influences in art and botanicals. His deep beliefs in mysticism in Sufi as well as perhaps degree of adaption of European occult beliefs filtered through their herbals, volumes of these ideologies, led to his ultimate demise as a heretic.

Those dynamic conditions are perhaps a leading situation as offering some clues toward the use of floral motif in Mughal art and weapons motif, at least in that particular period. The other circumstances with Jahangir it seems were more aligned with dynastic leitmotif and a less dimensional content, while the Dara Shikoh period offers other more intriguing possibilities.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim, what I dont quite understand, is why you all the time write about Dara Sikoh and not about Jahangir - who was the one who started the interest about the flowers?

Salaams Jenns, Thank you for your post. As I see it Jehangir and for that matter Shah Jehan have fairly flat, concise and well recorded histories on the subject, however, virtually the entire record of Dara-Shikoh has been manipulated and changed beyond recognition even down to almost entire portfolios of art works that have mysteriously vanished and others that have been erased even to the extent of having been painted out with gold paint (in the case of those artworks containing Islamic script).

Dara Shikoh and Aurangzeb went to war over this clash which ended disastrously when Aurangzeb won and had Dara-Shikoh tried tortured and executed for heresy... and many of the rest of his family persecuted and murdered. Is it therefor any wonder that this aspect grabs attention?

Dara was engaged much of the time with mystics and for a time he became fascinated in merging Islam and Hinduism together...It is the critical period in the mid 1600 s that inspires my attention at exactly the pivotal point that he fell foul of the Machiavellian tactics of his brother Aurangzeb. It can only be left to the imagination what may have transpired had he won against Aurangzeb and how the whole face of decoration not to mention The Mughal Empire and India would have altered...would it not?

Compared to the earthquake in geo-political terms that this event may have precipitated the other actors have a bland uneventful place in history, thus, it is this aspect that I focus in on.. I hope this does not deter anyone examining Shah Jehan or Jehangir's input into aspects of floral design in this era.

In studying The Mughals, Dara Shikoh is essential reading and although the subterfuge planned by Aurangzeb was almost entirely successful I think the more interesting account has yet to be penned...It was he who tried in fuse together floral Hindu art with the geometry of Islamic script. He was trying to unite the two concepts together and with the Mystics he almost did it...and would have performed the incredible feat of uniting two languages to boot...

It is for these reasons that I place into the discussion the Dara-Shikoh dilemma and posit that this contains the real sense in the debate over floral design which shrouds the more important Machiavellian business of The Mughal Empire.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.