"Malaysian kris/keris"

[Ian]

This one just finished online today. It is unusual. Anyone seen another one like it?

I'm not sure if it belongs here or over in the Keris Coffee Shop.

Ian.

.

[kai]

Hello Ian,

I strongly suspect this is a very recent Indonesian creation; not based on any genuine tradition.

Since it is apparently meant to resemble a keris sundang (aka Moro kris), I believe it is fair game here rather than the warung kopis...

Regards,
Kai

[F. de Luzon]

Hi Ian,

It is a Keris Sundang with a Bugis style hilt cup (pendokok). I've seen similar blades and hilts in Kuala Lumpur. In one shop I visited, it was referred to as Keris Sulu. I think because the style is inspired by the Moro kris. However, while Moro krisses have hilt rings, the Keris Sundang is supplied with a hilt cup just like the ones you'll find on the Indonesian and Malaysian keris. The Keris Sundang thus looks like a cross between the keris and the Moro kris.

That's an interesting pattern on that blade.

Kind regards,

F. de Luzon

[David]

Well, it sure doesn't look Moro to my eyes. Certainly a Malay Sundang. I think i should probably transfer this one over to the Keris Forum unless anyone thinks otherwise.

[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

It is a Keris Sundang with a Bugis style hilt cup (pendokok). I've seen similar blades and hilts in Kuala Lumpur. In one shop I visited, it was referred to as Keris Sulu. I think because the style is inspired by the Moro kris. However, while Moro krisses have hilt rings, the Keris Sundang is supplied with a hilt cup just like the ones you'll find on the Indonesian and Malaysian keris. The Keris Sundang thus looks like a cross between the keris and the Moro kris.

Yes F., we have certainly encountered these on the forum on numerous occasions. If you do a search of the forums under "Malay Sundang" you will find many discussion threads on these.

[kai]

Hello David,

Well, it sure doesn't look Moro to my eyes. Certainly a Malay Sundang.

Nah, it's not a Malay keris sundang. It's a badly done modern repro, most likely from a culture (Madura?) that never had any kind of keris sundang.

I think i should probably transfer this one over to the Keris Forum

Not unless you want to cause sore eyes...

We have always discussed legitimate keris sundang on the ethno forum, not in the warung kopis... [Trying to cut a line between Moro kris, Brunei kris/keris sundang, and Malay/Riau/Indo keris sundang would be pretty futile in many cases - quite a few have Moro blades, anyway!]

Regards,
Kai

[Rafngard]

Hello All,

I don't think I'm experienced enough to have an opinion on whether this is more in the Malay or Moro tradition (or an indonesian imitation of either). However, it's worth mentioning that the blade isn't your typical your typical iron/steal, but rather pot metal/white metal. This was mentioned in the ebay listing.

Thanks,
Leif

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

Nah, it's not a Malay keris sundang. It's a badly done modern repro, most likely from a culture (Madura?) that never had any kind of keris sundang.

That may well be so, but it is still something created in Indonesia and is has been made in a form much closer to examples of Malay Sundangs than Moro. I believe its intention is to be taken for a Malay Sundang given the included ricikan of this blade and the dress form.

Originally Posted by kai

Not unless you want to cause sore eyes...

Perhaps so, but then it would be an "eyesore" no matter which forum it was posted in.

Originally Posted by kai

We have always discussed legitimate keris sundang on the ethno forum, not in the warung kopis... [Trying to cut a line between Moro kris, Brunei kris/keris sundang, and Malay/Riau/Indo keris sundang would be pretty futile in many cases - quite a few have Moro blades, anyway!]

Well, that is demonstrably false Kai. If you search just the Keris Forum for Malay Sundang you will find that we have discussed these numerous times on that board. These blades have always fallen in a bit of a middle ground and you can find discussions of them on both forums. And i think we can agree that this one is not a Moro made blade, yes?

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

And i think we can agree that this one is not a Moro made blade, yes?

Certainly not Moro.

[A. G. Maisey]

If it is pot metal, or white metal or even pewter, I would be pretty certain that it is not Indonesian.

In addition, stylistically it is unlike anything that I've ever seen that was made in Indonesia.

However, there is a long tradition of souvenir items coming out of Malaysia, I think principally Selangor and Kuala Lumpur, of full size and miniature weapons with blades from metals other than ferric material.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

Yes F., we have certainly encountered these on the forum on numerous occasions. If you do a search of the forums under "Malay Sundang" you will find many discussion threads on these.

Hi David,

My description is based on a few examples I saw being sold in souvenir and antique shops in Kuala Lumpur. I remember seeing one with a hilt and hilt cup that is almost identical to the example above. When I inquired, I was told they were “Malay sundang.” That’s the basis of my statement. I regret not taking photos but Ian's example shares some of the features.

Curiously, I have Noraim Shariff’s book on the handicrafts of Terengganu (a region of Malaysia with a keris tradition) where there is a section on the keris industry, but the term sundang is not mentioned nor does its image appear in the book.

I took some photographs of the sundang at the National Museum of Malaysia (Muzium Negara) as well as the Islamic Arts Museum Malaysia, which I have attached below. The first one is from the Muzium Negara, the second its description, the third from the Islamic Arts Museum and the last the description.

In the museums, the terms sundang and Keris Suluk are used to refer to the Moro kris. There is no reference to a "peninsular" sundang (Malay Sundang?) in both museums.

I noticed the unusual hilts on the Moro kris from the Islamic Arts Museum. These are not common in the Philippines and they make them resemble the examples of “Malay sundang” in the discussion threads. Looking at the blades on the discussion threads, they really look more like re-hilted Moro krises, as mentioned by Kai.

Well known Manila antique dealer Ven Magbuhos personally told me that over the years, he has sent "crate loads" (his words) of Moro krises to Malaysia and that he doesn't know what has happened to them since. The probability that some of these blades have been re-hilted with a style in tune with Malaysian aesthetic sensibilities is probable.

Of course, the probability of Moro krises making their way from Mindanao across the Malay Archipelago onward to the Malay Peninsula throughout the centuries is also likely. James Warren provides an extensive discussion on the external trade of Sulu during the 19th century. Saleeby and Majul also indicate it. The work of Krieger also shows keris among the weapons used by Moros thus showing the exchange of commodities (including weapons) across the region. Edward Frey does not provide any examples of Malay sundang but mentions the use of the term as inappropriate when referring to the Moro kris. If I remember correctly, neither do A.H. Hill, G.C. Wooley and E. Banks trace the manufacture of the sundang to Peninsular Malaysia in their studies. Nonetheless, it seems to be a fact that such swords were present in the Malay Peninsula and just like in Mindanao, Sulu or Borneo, these swords would have required re-hilting eventually. This may explain the hilts that distinguish the so called Malay Sundang from the Moro kris.

The term Malay Sundang can thus refer to two different swords. It could refer to a Moro kris rehilted in the style of Malaysia or as A.G. Maisey pointed out, a product of a "long tradition of souvenir items."

Just sharing my thoughts and hopefully contributing to the discussion.

Regards,

F. de Luzon

[Ian]

When I saw this one I thought it was not very old. The hilt, in particular, reminded me of some of the recent horn hilts on pira, notably the way the horn cavity has been covered with a piece cut to fill the hole at the end of the hilt. That said, I don't believe this is a sword from the Sulu Archipelago but rather from Malaysia, as the seller indicated.

Nobody has commented so far on, what seems to me, an unusual arrangement of the luk, which occupy roughly in the middle third of the blade. I don't recall seeing another example where the curves start so far away from the hilt, but perhaps our keris experts can comment on how commonly this occurs.

Ian.

[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

Hi David,

My description is based on a few examples I saw being sold in souvenir and antique shops in Kuala Lumpur. I remember seeing one with a hilt and hilt cup that is almost identical to the example above. When I inquired, I was told they were “Malay sundang.” That’s the basis of my statement. I regret not taking photos but Ian's example shares some of the features.

Curiously, I have Noraim Shariff’s book on the handicrafts of Terengganu (a region of Malaysia with a keris tradition) where there is a section on the keris industry, but the term sundang is not mentioned nor does its image appear in the book.

I took some photographs of the sundang at the National Museum of Malaysia (Muzium Negara) as well as the Islamic Arts Museum Malaysia, which I have attached below. The first one is from the Muzium Negara, the second its description, the third from the Islamic Arts Museum and the last the description.

In the museums, the terms sundang and Keris Suluk are used to refer to the Moro kris. There is no reference to a "peninsular" sundang (Malay Sundang?) in both museums.

I noticed the unusual hilts on the Moro kris from the Islamic Arts Museum. These are not common in the Philippines and they make them resemble the examples of “Malay sundang” in the discussion threads. Looking at the blades on the discussion threads, they really look more like re-hilted Moro krises, as mentioned by Kai.

Well known Manila antique dealer Ven Magbuhos personally told me that over the years, he has sent "crate loads" (his words) of Moro krises to Malaysia and that he doesn't know what has happened to them since. The probability that some of these blades have been re-hilted with a style in tune with Malaysian aesthetic sensibilities is probable.

Of course, the probability of Moro krises making their way from Mindanao across the Malay Archipelago onward to the Malay Peninsula throughout the centuries is also likely. James Warren provides an extensive discussion on the external trade of Sulu during the 19th century. Saleeby and Majul also indicate it. The work of Krieger also shows keris among the weapons used by Moros thus showing the exchange of commodities (including weapons) across the region. Edward Frey does not provide any examples of Malay sundang but mentions the use of the term as inappropriate when referring to the Moro kris. If I remember correctly, neither do A.H. Hill, G.C. Wooley and E. Banks trace the manufacture of the sundang to Peninsular Malaysia in their studies. Nonetheless, it seems to be a fact that such swords were present in the Malay Peninsula and just like in Mindanao, Sulu or Borneo, these swords would have required re-hilting eventually. This may explain the hilts that distinguish the so called Malay Sundang from the Moro kris.

The term Malay Sundang can thus refer to two different swords. It could refer to a Moro kris rehilted in the style of Malaysia or as A.G. Maisey pointed out, a product of a "long tradition of souvenir items."

Just sharing my thoughts and hopefully contributing to the discussion.

Regards,

F. de Luzon

Forgive me if i misunderstand you train of thought here, but you seem to be attempting to debunk the notion of sundang blades being created indigenously by Malays themselves for other than souvenir purposes. While it is clearly obvious that many of the Malay dressed sundangs (perhaps even most) do indeed use Moro made blades i have seen many that obviously are not of Moro manufacture and the term "sundang" does seem to be the accepted name for this blade form in the Malay regions.
As for Frey's comments on the proper use of the word "sundang", there are many terms to describe Moro kris in the Moorlands, dependent upon which tribe is naming the blade and the specific form the blade takes (straight, wavy, half and half). If i am not mistaken i do believe that the term "sundang" may in fact have been used amongst certain Moros to describer a specific form of kris blade, along with other terms such as kalis.
Anyway, i think to would be incorrect to assume that if a Malay sundang does not have a Moro blade that it was manufactured only to be a "souvenir item".

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

Forgive me if i misunderstand you train of thought here, but you seem to be attempting to debunk the notion of sundang blades being created indigenously by Malays themselves for other than souvenir purposes. While it is clearly obvious that many of the Malay dressed sundangs (perhaps even most) do indeed use Moro made blades i have seen many that obviously are not of Moro manufacture and the term "sundang" does seem to be the accepted name for this blade form in the Malay regions.
As for Frey's comments on the proper use of the word "sundang", there are many terms to describe Moro kris in the Moorlands, dependent upon which tribe is naming the blade and the specific form the blade takes (straight, wavy, half and half). If i am not mistaken i do believe that the term "sundang" may in fact have been used amongst certain Moros to describer a specific form of kris blade, along with other terms such as kalis.
Anyway, i think to would be incorrect to assume that if a Malay sundang does not have a Moro blade that it was manufactured only to be a "souvenir item".

Thank you for your comments. I wish I could claim that I am “attempting to debunk a notion” but with the evidence that I have presented (or lack thereof on the Malay Sundang ), all I can say is that I am sharing an observation.

I shared my observation that the so called Malay Sundang/Peninsular Sundang are actually re-hilted Moro Kris and that there is no evidence of the production of such blades in Peninsular Malaysia. I supplied the references for such view above. To further support this observation, allow me to quote from R.O. Winstedt’s article “The Sundang and Other Malaysian Art Motifs” which was published in the Journal of the Malayan Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society in October 1941:

Soendang “a short broad sword” says van Ronkel’s dictionary with no word as its provenance. In the Encyclopaedia van Nedelandsch-Indie (1921) vol. IV, p.680 the word is not to be found but it is described under kalis-“Very different from the keris of Netherlands India is the kalis of the Philippines and of the Sulu Islands. It occurs also in North Borneo and more recently in the districts of Jambi and Indragiri. The Leiden catalogue mentions a specimen from Riau. The blade is long and for a great part of its length is of the same breadth, so that the weapon is as good for hewing as for stabbing. This applies to the wavy as well as to the straight blades, as the waves are small and shallow. More remarkable than anything else are the hilts and the copper or steel fastening about the broad butt. The hilts are nearly straight, Philippine examples ending in a knob in the shape of a bird’s head. Sulu ones in a stylized seated bird with jutting head and tail.” The same article cites soendang as a sword from East Sumatra but gives no description. Wilkinson explains sundang as “sword keris; Sulu Keris…..It differs from the keris in size and massiveness and in its large and serviceable cockatoo headed handle”. My own English-Malay Dictionary & History of Malay call it a sword and following Malay tradition, ascribe it to the Bugis who evidently popularized it. Mr. Wooley talks of “keris like sword of Borneo known as the keris Suluk” …. And Mr. E. Banks of the “keris Suluk or Sundang…., describing it clearly with photos and terming it a broad sword rather than a dagger, with the pregnant comment that it is “almost the only Malaysian cutting instrument with both sides sharpened” (p. 238)

Please take note that the author made no reference to a Peninsular Malaysian origin but to its origins primarily in Sulu and Borneo. I believe this further supports my observation that the so called Malay Sundang are essentially a re-hilted Moro kris.

With regard the blades that you described as “obviously (are) not of Moro manufacture,” the article mentions a sword called soendang in East Sumatra (Jambi/Indragiri?). It is unfortunate that no description was provided but it opens the possibility of a non-Moro origin of certain sundang. I hope that some of the keris experts can enlighten us on this matter. I am not closed to the possibility of alternative origins but so far, I have not seen evidence of it being the Peninsula.

I also stated that the only examples referred to as “Malay Sundang” that I personally saw are items being sold in Kuala Lumpur souvenir and antique shops. These resemble Ian’s example above and I believe that they are souvenir items and not serious fighting blades.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

the term "sundang" does seem to be the accepted name for this blade form in the Malay regions.

As for Frey's comments on the proper use of the word "sundang", there are many terms to describe Moro kris in the Moorlands, dependent upon which tribe is naming the blade and the specific form the blade takes (straight, wavy, half and half). If i am not mistaken i do believe that the term "sundang" may in fact have been used amongst certain Moros to describer a specific form of kris blade, along with other terms such as kalis.

Actually, on the usage of Frey, I simply wanted to show that he used the term in reference to the Moro kris and not to the so called Malay Sundang.

The word "Sundang" is a generic term for knife or sword in Philippine languages. Its usage can range from a kitchen knife, to a bolo (itak/itac), to a sword like the kris. I’ve noticed how it has been used to refer specifically to the straight kris in the discussion forums but in common usage, it is really a very generic term. Here are some examples from nineteenth century dictionaries:

In the Spanish-Tagalog manual, Vade-mecum filipino, o, Manual de la conversación familiar español-tagalog : sequido de un curioso vocabulario de modismos Manileños by V.M. de Abella, published in Manila in 1874; cuchillo de cocina (kitchen knife) is translated as itac or sundang. Cuchillo (knife) is translated as sundang or campit.

In the Diccionario tiruray-español (Tiruray-Spanish dictionary) by Guillermo Bennásar and published in 1892, Sundang is defined as “especie de espada corta y ancha llamada vulgarmente cris” or "species of short and broad sword called vulgarly cris."

You'll find similar usage in other Philippine languages and dialects. The range of meaning of the term sundang is thus really broad.

[David]

I was not at all arguing that the Malay Sundang does not have its origins in the Philippines as a form, only that once it migrated back to the Malay people that local smiths also manufactured a certain amount of blades on what we recognize as Malay Sundangs.
I know that Charles has posted a number of Malay Sundangs that carried blades we all seemed to agree at the time were not of Moro origin and these sundangs were most certainly not of a souvenir nature. Here is a link to one such discussion.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14292
I am well aware of the generic nature of the word "sundang" and it's many uses throughout SEA. Examples like this are what makes the name game so ridiculous at times. However, i can state fairly confidently the the "so-called" Malay Sundang is what Malay collectors call their particular version of the Moro Kris on their own turf. As a Western collector i am not really willing to step in and explain to the Malay people that it is simply a "so-called" name, nor am i about to cite the writings of any number of Europeans to explain to them why that name is some how inappropriate for their usage. It simply is the name that is used by local collectors in Indonesia and the Malay Peninsula AFAIK.
Again, i do believe that a great number of these Malay examples are indeed re-dressed Moro blades, however, as this form became more accepted amongst the Malay it seems only logical that they would begin to manufacture a few blades of their own in this form. I don't know that these non-Moro blades were forged on the Peninsula or Borneo, or some other place in Indonesia, but it seems clear that they were not made by Moros in the Morolands. Please keep in mind that the Malay people are not restricted just to Malaysia and the Peninsula. When we use the word Malay we refer to Malay Peninsula, eastern Sumatra and coastal Borneo, as well as the smaller islands which lie between these locations — areas that are collectively known as the Malay world. These locations today are part of the modern nations of Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Brunei, and southern Thailand.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

I was not at all arguing that the Malay Sundang does not have its origins in the Philippines as a form, only that once it migrated back to the peninsula that local smiths also manufactured a certain amount of blades on what we recognize as Malay Sundangs.
I know that Charles has posted a number of Malay Sundangs that carried blades we all seemed to agree at the time were not of Moro origin and these sundangs were most certainly not of a souvenir nature. Here is a link to one such discussion.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14292
I am well aware of the generic nature of the word "sundang" and it's many uses throughout SEA. Examples like this are what makes the name game so ridiculous at times. However, i can state fairly confidently the the "so-called" Malay Sundang is what Malay collectors call their particular version of the Moro Kris on their own turf. As a Western collector i am not really willing to step in and explain to the Malay people that it is simply a "so-called" name, nor am i about to cite the writings of a any number of Europeans to explain to them why that name is some how inappropriate. It simply is the name that is used by local collectors in Indonesia and the Malay Peninsula AFAIK.
Again, i do believe that a great number of these Malay examples are indeed re-dressed Moro blades, however, as this form became more accepted amongst the Malay it seems only logical that they would begin to manufacture a few blades of their own in this form. I don't know that these non-Moro blades were forged on the Peninsula or Borneo, or some other place in Indonesia, but it seems clear that they were not made by Moros in the Morolands. Please keep in mind that the Malay people are not restricted just to Malaysia and the Peninsula. When we use the word Malay we refer to Malay Peninsula, eastern Sumatra and coastal Borneo, as well as the smaller islands which lie between these locations — areas that are collectively known as the Malay world. These locations today are part of the modern nations of Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Brunei, and southern Thailand.

I mean no offense, but based on the references I mentioned I really see no evidence of the manufacture of sundang in peninsular Malaysia in the past. Like I said, I recognize the possibility that these blades were also manufactured in places other than Sulu such as Borneo and Sumatra which may account for the variation in style. But judging from the examples I've seen in the discussion threads, many look like they came straight from the Sulu and the Mindanao area, and not just in form. I think that the probability of Moro manufactured blades being traded and reaching peninsular Malaysia should also be taken seriously.

The Philippines has been and still is part of the Malay world. While there are those who consider Islam a component of "Malayness" most Filipinos (many of whom are Catholic) would say that they belong to the Malay race. They are known to have traveled across the region in pre-Spanish times (mid 16th Century). The presence of ancient Filipinos in Malacca was recorded by the Portuguese, Tome Pires in the early 1500s. He referred to them as Lucoes or "Luzon Men." While he did not give a completely flattering description of them, they were nonetheless described as fierce warriors. He also explained how they participated in wars between sultans and against the Portuguese. Based on the record, it seems they were mercenaries which may explain the presence of their weapons in Peninsular Malaysia. The big question is whether they already had the sundang with them at the time. There is no evidence to prove it yet.

Nonetheless, trade between Southern Philippines (Sulu) and the rest of the Malay world would continue even after Luzon, the Visayas and parts of Mindanao were colonized by Spain. (Saleeby and Warren explain this) Sometime during this period, I suspect the Moro blacksmiths also sold their blades to people in other parts of the region, including the peninsular Malaysians. There was nothing to stop them from doing so.

Btw, I respect the use of the term "Malay Sundang" but again I do not agree that they were locally manufactured in Peninsular Malaysia.

I have also seen the beautiful non Moro "Malay Sundang" that you mentioned and they were certainly not made to be souvenirs. But as I have stated above, I was referring to the blades I personally saw being sold in KL currently branded as Keris Sundang and also referred to as Malay Sundang. They really look more like a cross between the kris and the keris, just like Ian's blade.

[Ian]

David and de Luzon:

I don't want to get in the way of your interesting discussion. It has long been my understanding that the "Malay sundang" was a variant of the Moro kris, a sort of back development from the historic origin of the kris from the keris. In handling a few older Malay sundang, which were consistent with pre-1900 manufacture, I was impressed by the feel that they had in hand which was different from the more substantial Moro kris. My sense was that these "Malay" versions were somewhat lighter and thinner in the blades, although their straight blades were quite wide. That suggested to me that at least the older ones were not imported from the Sulu Archipelago or Mindanao, but were made elsewhere. My assumption was that they were made in what is today Malaysia. I'm willing to accept that these could have been made, say, in Brunei or North Borneo, but I have no good reason to think that is where they were made.

As far as more modern versions being made in Moroland and exported to Malyasia for sale there, I guess that is possible but there is a good market in Manila which is a lot closer than KL.

I would agree that the subject of this thread was probably made by a Malaysian keris-maker who thought he would make a sundang to sell to those who travel. What we ended up with is a relatively recently made kris/keris hybrid. At least that's how it looks to me.

Ian.

[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

Btw, I respect the use of the term "Malay Sundang" but again I do not agree that they were locally manufactured in Peninsular Malaysia.

No offense taken, i assure you.
I don't believe, however, that anyone is really arguing that these non-Moro sundangs were manufactured on the Malay Peninsula. Despite Ian's title for this thread they are usually referred to as "Malay Sundangs" (not "Malaysian" as in the country of Malaysia) and belong to the Malay world. I also don't think that anyone would argue that there aren't people of Malay decent in the Philippines or their contribution to that culture, however i would say that it is debatable as to whether or not we should consider the Philippines as part of the "Malay World" in our discussion of their weapons. Though not always the best source i will cite a section of a Wikipedia article that speaks to this debate.

"The Philippines doesn't have a significant ethnic Malay population today, and most if any, descendants of Malays have been assimilated into the general culture, characterized by Spanish influence and Roman Catholicism. Malay influence is still strong in the culturally conservative regions of Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago, whose' people actually reject being called Filipino, and to some extent, in Visayas as well where much Malay involvement came during the classical era. These three island groups are where most Filipinos of Malay descent live.
In the modern-day, the closest population to Malays are the Moro people, the native Muslim population of the Philippines that inhabit Mindanao, Sulu Archipelago, parts of Visayas and the Quiapo district in Manila. They follow a culture and lifestyle similar to Malays.
There is an often a lot of confusion in the Philippines between "ethnic Malays" and "Malay race", a term coined for brown-skinned Austronesian natives of not only the Philippines, but also of Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Singapore and Thailand. The country had its own Malay nationalism, un-associated with the anti-colonial struggle in the British and Dutch East Indies. The Philippine nationalism occurred albeit the end of Spanish occupation and spearheaded by José Rizal. Unlike the Malay nationalism and "Malayness" in Indonesia and Malaysia which was defined by Islam as well as being of the ethnic group, Rizal's movement was that of a secular vision to unify the natives of the Malay Archipelago and the Malay Peninsula, believing them to have falsely been divided by colonial powers."

That said, however, as collectors of edged weapons from these regions we have usually gone along with that division, falsely applied or not, between the Malay world and that of the Philippines when categorizing their weapons. So when one speaks of a "Malay Sundang" we are referring to a non-Moro weapon. This is not to say the blade did not originate from a Moro smith and, as i believe we all agree, most of these blades do seem to come form Moro origins. However, as you have yourself just admitted, you "have also seen the beautiful non Moro" Malay Sundang" that you mentioned and they were certainly not made to be souvenirs". So you seem to contradict the statement you made in post #11, which is what i was originally debating you on. You said there "The term Malay Sundang can thus refer to two different swords. It could refer to a Moro kris rehilted in the style of Malaysia or as A.G. Maisey pointed out, a product of a "long tradition of souvenir items."
I'm sorry, but this statement simply does not jive with what you said about non-Moro blades in the last paragraph of your last post.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ian

It has long been my understanding that the "Malay sundang" was a variant of the Moro kris, a sort of back development from the historic origin of the kris from the keris. In handling a few older Malay sundang, which were consistent with pre-1900 manufacture, I was impressed by the feel that they had in hand which was different from the more substantial Moro kris. My sense was that these "Malay" versions were somewhat lighter and thinner in the blades, although their straight blades were quite wide. That suggested to me that at least the older ones were not imported from the Sulu Archipelago or Mindanao, but were made elsewhere. My assumption was that they were made in what is today Malaysia. I'm willing to accept that these could have been made, say, in Brunei or North Borneo, but I have no good reason to think that is where they were made.

Ian, i believe we are pretty much on the same page here. The keris travelled to the Philippines, developed into the slashing, longer blade and then was re-introduced back into Indonesia mist probably through trade lines with the Bugis people. While the example that started this thread is more than likely exactly what you describe i remain fairly confident that there are numerous examples of Malay Sundang with indigenous Indonesian blades that were in fact not created solely for the tourist trade. I also don't know whether to not these blades were made in Borneo, Brunei or even somewhere on the Peninsula, but i am fairly certain that they did not originate with Moro smiths and were not created as souvenirs.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

No offense taken, i assure you.
I don't believe, however, that anyone is really arguing that these non-Moro sundangs were manufactured on the Malay Peninsula. Despite Ian's title for this thread they are usually referred to as "Malay Sundangs" (not "Malaysian" as in the country of Malaysia) and belong to the Malay world. I also don't think that anyone would argue that there aren't people of Malay decent in the Philippines or their contribution to that culture, however i would say that it is debatable as to whether or not we should consider the Philippines as part of the "Malay World" in our discussion of their weapons. Though not always the best source i will cite a section of a Wikipedia article that speaks to this debate.

"The Philippines doesn't have a significant ethnic Malay population today, and most if any, descendants of Malays have been assimilated into the general culture, characterized by Spanish influence and Roman Catholicism. Malay influence is still strong in the culturally conservative regions of Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago, whose' people actually reject being called Filipino, and to some extent, in Visayas as well where much Malay involvement came during the classical era. These three island groups are where most Filipinos of Malay descent live.
In the modern-day, the closest population to Malays are the Moro people, the native Muslim population of the Philippines that inhabit Mindanao, Sulu Archipelago, parts of Visayas and the Quiapo district in Manila. They follow a culture and lifestyle similar to Malays.
There is an often a lot of confusion in the Philippines between "ethnic Malays" and "Malay race", a term coined for brown-skinned Austronesian natives of not only the Philippines, but also of Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Singapore and Thailand. The country had its own Malay nationalism, un-associated with the anti-colonial struggle in the British and Dutch East Indies. The Philippine nationalism occurred albeit the end of Spanish occupation and spearheaded by José Rizal. Unlike the Malay nationalism and "Malayness" in Indonesia and Malaysia which was defined by Islam as well as being of the ethnic group, Rizal's movement was that of a secular vision to unify the natives of the Malay Archipelago and the Malay Peninsula, believing them to have falsely been divided by colonial powers."

That said, however, as collectors of edged weapons from these regions we have usually gone along with that division, falsely applied or not, between the Malay world and that of the Philippines when categorizing their weapons. So when one speaks of a "Malay Sundang" we are referring to a non-Moro weapon. This is not to say the blade did not originate from a Moro smith and, as i believe we all agree, most of these blades do seem to come form Moro origins. However, as you have yourself just admitted, you "have also seen the beautiful non Moro" Malay Sundang" that you mentioned and they were certainly not made to be souvenirs". So you seem to contradict the statement you made in post #11, which is what i was originally debating you on. You said there "The term Malay Sundang can thus refer to two different swords. It could refer to a Moro kris rehilted in the style of Malaysia or as A.G. Maisey pointed out, a product of a "long tradition of souvenir items."
I'm sorry, but this statement simply does not jive with what you said about non-Moro blades in the last paragraph of your last post.

Hi David,

For clarity, I will keep my reply simple:
1. First of all, wikipedia is not the best source of information. While useful, I do not consider it scholarly. On being Malay, like I said, some view Islam as a vital component, but not all. By the way, just fyi, historical societies of Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines are going to have an international conference on the Malay World this coming September in Manila (www.malayworldconference2017.com). They agree on being Malay.

2. Can you please cite a scholarly reference that actually uses that term Malay sundang?

3. I shared my observation that there is no proof of the traditional manufacture of Sundang in peninsular Malaysia. I pointed towards the evidences to support this and my other views. Can you please cite scholarly references for you arguments?

4. I did not contradict myself. My statement jives in the context of this thread. It just seems we have a different appreciation of terminologies which has led to confusion.

Regards,

F. de Luzon

[Battara]

I will add that some of what has been said may explain some of my observations:

I have noticed that some "Malay" kris blades look either very Maguindanao or Sulu (though others seem not to be very Moro).

On the Moro blades, the okir and inlays appear very Moro. So trade seems likely to me, but not all blades.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by Ian

I don't want to get in the way of your interesting discussion. It has long been my understanding that the "Malay sundang" was a variant of the Moro kris, a sort of back development from the historic origin of the kris from the keris. In handling a few older Malay sundang, which were consistent with pre-1900 manufacture, I was impressed by the feel that they had in hand which was different from the more substantial Moro kris. My sense was that these "Malay" versions were somewhat lighter and thinner in the blades, although their straight blades were quite wide. That suggested to me that at least the older ones were not imported from the Sulu Archipelago or Mindanao, but were made elsewhere. My assumption was that they were made in what is today Malaysia. I'm willing to accept that these could have been made, say, in Brunei or North Borneo, but I have no good reason to think that is where they were made.

Hello Ian and thank you for your comment. In light of past discussions found in various threads of this forum, I understand why you have such an impression. However, it seems that so far, the general understanding of the background of the sundang is based on mere assumptions. Even the age of these blades have not been established with accuracy.

I have shown a scholarly reference that points to the origin of the sword as the Mindanao and Borneo area. Other references whose authors I've mentioned also attribute it to the Moros. The word sundang itself is in the vocabulary of various languages in the Philippines but not in the Malay language. Malay dictionaries will prove this ("Pedang" for sword is the closest term). Soendang has been mentioned as a term for a sword in East Sumatra but without a description we cannot be certain if it is indeed the same as the so called malay sundang. It could be something else.

At present, I am inclined to conclude that "Malay Sundang" is a term used only by collectors to refer to a blade that resembles the Moro kris sundang and that the manufacture of the true Keris Sundang (not Malay Sundang) can be traced to the Mindanao, Sulu and Borneo area, as acknowledged in scholarly references.

It may be prudent to search for the actual name of the so called "Malay sundang" where ever the origin of its manufacture may be.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever considered the probability of Javanese, Sumatran, etc. empus emigrating to Sulu and manufacturing Keris Sundang in their own stylistic tradition there? Historical sources indicate that there were people from all over the world in Sulu at different points in time including Chinese sword smiths. If the Chinese could go there, why not Indonesians? What if these so called "Malay sundang" were also manufactured in Sulu but just in a different style and then traded? This can be the subject of further scholarly investigation.

[/QUOTE] As far as more modern versions being made in Moroland and exported to Malaysia for sale there, I guess that is possible but there is a good market in Manila which is a lot closer than KL.[/QUOTE]

My apologies if this was the impression ("modern versions") my words gave you but I was referring to antique Moro kris that were exported from the Philippines to Malaysia, as narrated to me by Mr. Ven. I am not aware of modern Moro kris being brought there. I have also not seen any in KL.

[/QUOTE] I would agree that the subject of this thread was probably made by a Malaysian keris-maker who thought he would make a sundang to sell to those who travel. What we ended up with is a relatively recently made kris/keris hybrid. At least that's how it looks to me. [/QUOTE]

I share the same view.

Regards,


F. de Luzon

[A. G. Maisey]

I have a keris that is reputed to be the state execution keris of Brunei.

The pamor construction is stylistically Madurese. This was the opinion of Empu Suparman Supowijoyo, Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, and it is also my opinion.

In form this keris is a very slim Moro type of keris. A similar one was shown in this Forum some years ago.

Pandes from Jawa and Madura did move all over Maritime South East Asia. They would work in one place for a while and then move on to a different location.

I have used the term "keris", rather than "kris" because other members of the keris culture that forms the foundation of my knowledge would also spell the word in this way if referring to the keris I have mentioned.

[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

I have shown a scholarly reference that points to the origin of the sword as the Mindanao and Borneo area. Other references whose authors I've mentioned also attribute it to the Moros. The word sundang itself is in the vocabulary of various languages in the Philippines but not in the Malay language. Malay dictionaries will prove this ("Pedang" for sword is the closest term). Soendang has been mentioned as a term for a sword in East Sumatra but without a description we cannot be certain if it is indeed the same as the so called malay sundang. It could be something else.

You seem to be debating a point that no one is arguing here. The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris (whether Bugis or Balinese, etc. has never been proven), but the form itself, as a slashing sword length weapon has pretty much always been attributed to the Moro people. No one has stated otherwise in this thread.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

At present, I am inclined to conclude that "Malay Sundang" is a term used only by collectors to refer to a blade that resembles the Moro kris sundang and that the manufacture of the true Keris Sundang (not Malay Sundang) can be traced to the Mindanao, Sulu and Borneo area, as acknowledged in scholarly references.

Yep, again, no one is debating this point here. The Kris Sundang (and you will find numerous other weapons in the area of the Philippines also called "sundang" given the generic nature of the word) is not originally an Indonesian creation. However, there is a form of it that is from areas of Indonesia and yes, the indigenous population of these areas that are collectors, in other words, Malay people, do refer to this now as a Malay Sundang. Frankly, what Winstedt has to say about terminology ( which is mostly the re-hashing of other European authors in the book section you have posted) in pre-WWII Malaysia is a fairly moot issue at this point in time. Language evolves. That a large community of indigenous Malay collectors now refer to their own version of the Moro kris as a "Malay Sundang" legitimizes that terminology for me. It is, after all, their culture.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever considered the probability of Javanese, Sumatran, etc. empus emigrating to Sulu and manufacturing Keris Sundang in their own stylistic tradition there? Historical sources indicate that there were people from all over the world in Sulu at different points in time including Chinese sword smiths. If the Chinese could go there, why not Indonesians? What if these so called "Malay sundang" were also manufactured in Sulu but just in a different style and then traded? This can be the subject of further scholarly investigation.

I think pretty much everybody who has been involved in the discussion of these weapons on this board over the years has considered this probability and in fact discussed it. Again, i am not sure who you are debating or trying to convince. However, i and many others might argue your conclusive question. Why is it not just as likely that after seeing Moro kris and accepting and re-dressing traded blades in Malay/Indonesian styles that smiths in various Malay regions would not attempt to forge their own on their home turf? Obviously the smiths of Brunei, Sumatra, Borneo and Sulawesi have proven themselves quite skillful blade smiths over the centuries. So why assume that the sundangs that obviously don't look Moro in origin had to be created by Javanese or Sumatran smiths still living in the Philippines who emigrated to, say, Sulu or some other area of Moroland? Frankly, as much as you are demanding "scholarly" references from me, nothing you have presented supports your idea that none of these "so-call" Malay Sundangs have blades that were actually made in Indonesia. I would think that logic would suggest that in fact Indonesian smiths would emulate the slashing sword form of the Moro kris and create their own take on it.
Again, no one is denying that a great many of these Malay Sundangs (and i will continue to refer to them as such because that is what Malays call them these days) do indeed have Moro blades. But enough do not to raise the question of where those other blades may have been manufactured. Assuming they are all traded blades from the Philippines does not make sense to me and does not seem to hold up to observational evidence.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by David

You seem to be debating a point that no one is arguing here. The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris (whether Bugis or Balinese, etc. has never been proven), but the form itself, as a slashing sword length weapon has pretty much always been attributed to the Moro people. No one has stated otherwise in this thread.


Yep, again, no one is debating this point here. The Kris Sundang (and you will find numerous other weapons in the area of the Philippines also called "sundang" given the generic nature of the word) is not originally an Indonesian creation. However, there is a form of it that is from areas of Indonesia and yes, the indigenous population of these areas that are collectors, in other words, Malay people, do refer to this now as a Malay Sundang. Frankly, what Winstedt has to say about terminology ( which is mostly the re-hashing of other European authors in the book section you have posted) in pre-WWII Malaysia is a fairly moot issue at this point in time. Language evolves. That a large community of indigenous Malay collectors now refer to their own version of the Moro kris as a "Malay Sundang" legitimizes that terminology for me. It is, after all, their culture.


Again, i am not sure who you are debating or trying to convince. However, i and many others might argue your conclusive question. Why is it not just as likely that after seeing Moro kris and accepting and re-dressing traded blades in Malay/Indonesian styles that smiths in various Malay regions would not attempt to forge their own on their home turf? Obviously the smiths of Brunei, Sumatra, Borneo and Sulawesi have proven themselves quite skillful blade smiths over the centuries. So why assume that the sundangs that obviously don't look Moro in origin had to be created by Javanese or Sumatran smiths still living in the Philippines who emigrated to, say, Sulu or some other area of Moroland? Frankly, as much as you are demanding "scholarly" references from me, nothing you have presented supports your idea that none of these "so-call" Malay Sundangs have blades that were actually made in Indonesia. I would think that logic would suggest that in fact Indonesian smiths would emulate the slashing sword form of the Moro kris and create their own take on it.
Again, no one is denying that a great many of these Malay Sundangs (and i will continue to refer to them as such because that is what Malays call them these days) do indeed have Moro blades. But enough do not to raise the question of where those other blades may have been manufactured. Assuming they are all traded blades from the Philippines does not make sense to me and does not seem to hold up to observational evidence.

Hi David,

"The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris."

This point has not been proven at all and is not even discussed in any literature on the keris. I don't think Cato even discussed it in his work on Moro swords.

"Frankly, what Winstedt has to say about terminology ( which is mostly the re-hashing of other European authors in the book section you have posted).."

I am curious who these authors are? Please take note that Winstedt published this article in 1941.

"Language evolves. That a large community of indigenous Malay collectors now refer to their own version of the Moro kris as a "Malay Sundang" legitimizes that terminology for me. It is, after all, their culture."

True, but in what way is this a case of linguistic evolution? I see it as a misappropriation of a term which makes it necessary to correct and which I am attempting to do. Like I also said, I have not encountered the term "Malay Sundang" in any reliable literature.

"Why is it not just as likely that after seeing Moro kris and accepting and re-dressing traded blades in Malay/Indonesian styles that smiths in various Malay regions would not attempt to forge their own on their home turf? Obviously the smiths of Brunei, Sumatra, Borneo and Sulawesi have proven themselves quite skillful blade smiths over the centuries. So why assume that the sundangs that obviously don't look Moro in origin had to be created by Javanese or Sumatran smiths still living in the Philippines who emigrated to, say, Sulu or some other area of Moroland?"

Simply because no evidence of such appears in any serious study. I am basing my statements on published scholarly works and not mere imagination.

"Frankly, as much as you are demanding "scholarly" references from me, nothing you have presented supports your idea that none of these "so-call" Malay Sundangs have blades that were actually made in Indonesia. I would think that logic would suggest that in fact Indonesian smiths would emulate the slashing sword form of the Moro kris and create their own take on it."

Please check the references and you will see what I mean. None say their origins to be Indonesia but they do mention Sulu and Borneo. None also mention the term "Malay Sundang." I would provide all the details if I were writing a paper for a journal publication here but I am not. I will publish that somewhere else. I have nonetheless indicated the references or at least their authors for the convenience of those who would like to engage in a scholarly understanding of the sundang. I'm sorry but logic is not sufficient to prove the point. We have to recognize the hard work of earlier scholars who devoted time and effort to find out the truth. I have based my views on such works.

Anyway, the problem with this platform of communication is that sentiments may be misinterpreted and we are reduced to expressing ourselves in the form of emoticons. I hope I am not coming off as being adversarial. I am not. I am simply sharing my thoughts but I hope nonetheless that it would be taken seriously. I respect your views but it seems that at this point, the least we can do is to agree to disagree. I hope we can agree on that.

[Sajen]

Hi F. de Luzon, I don't want to join a discussion about names nor I want discuss the references in relevant literature.
But there is a point at which I'm sure, there are for sure so called pure Malay sundangs/kris which are for sure not coming with pure Moro blades. So they can't be called "rehilted Moro blades", see for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=malay+sundang and here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=malay+sundang

"The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris."

This point has not been proven at all and is not even discussed in any literature on the keris. I don't think Cato even discussed it in his work on Moro swords.


"In the course of its expansion to nearby lands, this reptilian (naga) was adopted by the Malay peoples, who used it as the pattern for their keris blades. The Malay keris, in turn, eventually became the prototype for the Moro version that figured so prominently in the warface of the Southern Philippines." Moro Swords, Robert Cato, Singapore, 1996, page 61, 62

Best regards,
Detlef

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi F. de Luzon, I don't want to join a discussion about names nor I want discuss the references in relevant literature.
But there is a point at which I'm sure, there are for sure so called pure Malay sundangs/kris which are for sure not coming with pure Moro blades. So they can't be called "rehilted Moro blades", see for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=malay+sundang and here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=malay+sundang

"The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris."

This point has not been proven at all and is not even discussed in any literature on the keris. I don't think Cato even discussed it in his work on Moro swords.


"In the course of its expansion to nearby lands, this reptilian (naga) was adopted by the Malay peoples, who used it as the pattern for their keris blades. The Malay keris, in turn, eventually became the prototype for the Moro version that figured so prominently in the warface of the Southern Philippines." Moro Swords, Robert Cato, Singapore, 1996, page 61, 62

Best regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

I don't have my copy of Cato right now which is why I expressed my uncertainty in my statement that you quoted. But this is only one statement and not my main argument. Nonetheless, I cited a probable source of information which was Cato.

Aside from that, it seems to me that the sundang in the examples you shared have Moro/Sulu blades.

Kind regards,

F. de Luzon

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

Aside from that, it seems to me that the sundang in the examples you shared have Moro/Sulu blades.

Hmmmm, interesting point of view!

Best regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

"The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris."

This point has not been proven at all and is not even discussed in any literature on the keris. I don't think Cato even discussed it in his work on Moro swords.

Well, i never said "proven", i said "accepted". Frankly i don't need the scholarly writings of Europeans nearly a century ago to tell me what i can see and determine for myself through simple observation. Do you believe that the Moro Kris developed in a vacuum, yet for some reason carries the same form and iconography as it's cousin, the Indonesian keris, which developed centuries before it? Or perhaps you have seen examples of Moro kris which can be reasonably dated anywhere near the oldest know examples of Indonesian keris. If you have, i'd like to see them. Or maybe you have some photographs from a stele at an ancient Moro temple that can be dated to the 15th century (as can with the Candi Sukuh in Central Jawa showing Javanese keris) that shows depictions Moro style kris in use at the time, thereby dating their existence to somewhere near the same time when the Indonesian keris as we know to was developing.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

"Frankly, what Winstedt has to say about terminology ( which is mostly the re-hashing of other European authors in the book section you have posted).."
I am curious who these authors are? Please take note that Winstedt published this article in 1941.

Seriously? You posted the Winstedt article. I assume you've read it He clearly references Woolley, Wilkenson, van Ronkel, Banks, and others.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

"Language evolves. That a large community of indigenous Malay collectors now refer to their own version of the Moro kris as a "Malay Sundang" legitimizes that terminology for me. It is, after all, their culture."
True, but in what way is this a case of linguistic evolution? I see it as a misappropriation of a term which makes it necessary to correct and which I am attempting to do. Like I also said, I have not encountered the term "Malay Sundang" in any reliable literature.

Language is a living entity. It does not only live for academic purposes. I am regularly in communication with a large group of keris enthusiasts from various parts of Indonesia and Malaysia. This is THEIR culture, not mine. It is not for me to critical their cultural "appropriation". If i want to communicate with them, which is, after all, the actual purpose of language, it is best for me to use terms they best understand. When i say "Malay Sundang" they immediately know exactly what i mean. It is not for me to "correct" them and i would only be risking alienating that community if i tried. Your mileage may vary.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

"Why is it not just as likely that after seeing Moro kris and accepting and re-dressing traded blades in Malay/Indonesian styles that smiths in various Malay regions would not attempt to forge their own on their home turf? Obviously the smiths of Brunei, Sumatra, Borneo and Sulawesi have proven themselves quite skillful blade smiths over the centuries. So why assume that the sundangs that obviously don't look Moro in origin had to be created by Javanese or Sumatran smiths still living in the Philippines who emigrated to, say, Sulu or some other area of Moroland?"

Simply because no evidence of such appears in any serious study. I am basing my statements on published scholarly works and not mere imagination.

No evidence seems to exist for either theory. Where in your scholarly works have you come across anyone saying that Malay Sundang blades that are not Moro were made by Indonesians living and working in Moroland that were then traded to Indonesians? Why is your "imagination" any more legitimate than mine. We are all just speculating here and to claim that you have the answers based upon solid and indisputable evidence provided to you through scholarly research is disingenuous at best.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

"Frankly, as much as you are demanding "scholarly" references from me, nothing you have presented supports your idea that none of these "so-call" Malay Sundangs have blades that were actually made in Indonesia. I would think that logic would suggest that in fact Indonesian smiths would emulate the slashing sword form of the Moro kris and create their own take on it."

Please check the references and you will see what I mean. None say their origins to be Indonesia but they do mention Sulu and Borneo. None also mention the term "Malay Sundang." I would provide all the details if I were writing a paper for a journal publication here but I am not. I will publish that somewhere else. I have nonetheless indicated the references or at least their authors for the convenience of those who would like to engage in a scholarly understanding of the sundang. I'm sorry but logic is not sufficient to prove the point. We have to recognize the hard work of earlier scholars who devoted time and effort to find out the truth. I have based my views on such works.

Please don't misunderstand. I do not dismiss scholarship. I have read Winstedt, Woolley, Frey, Cato, Groneman, Tammens, van Duuren, Van Zonneveld, Gardner, etc., etc. However, as i am sure you know, great holes exist in these researches that may never be filled and i cannot think of any recognized author who has fully tackled and explained the origins of the Moro Kris or, for that matter, how the Malay Sundang developed. I am not attempting to prove a point here as give the current state of evidence i do not believe there is enough evidence to prove any points. We are left with logic, speculation and conjecture.