what is it

galvano · 12th February 2006, 08:38 PM

hi
blade 46 cm
hilt 55 cm

Andrew · 12th February 2006, 08:51 PM

This is a form of dha. From one of the various hill tribes loosly referred to as "Montagnard". Probably from Laos, but some are attributed to Vietnam and Thailand.

The very long handle, small disc guard and "hatchet" tip are typical of the form.

Nice example. The scabbard looks newer than the blade and handle, and these scabbards are most often seen completely bound with rattan strips.

Andrew · 12th February 2006, 10:43 PM

Some other examples:

galvano · 13th February 2006, 07:14 PM

many thanks Andrew for this clarification !!!!!
galvano

Ian · 14th February 2006, 10:05 PM

Another example. Similar style of wrap on the hilt.

fearn · 15th February 2006, 02:10 AM

Out of curiosity, how far up the hilt does the tang go on these dhas?

Andrew · 15th February 2006, 05:18 AM

Not very far, Fearn. Most dha have short, spiked tangs, and these are consistent. Mark did an informal study about this a while ago and there's an old thread in the archives about it.

Mark · 15th February 2006, 06:26 PM

Indeed. You find through tangs very rarely in dha, and I sometimes wonder at their authenticity.

I read in Ferrars & Ferrars' "Burma" that the short tang is used to minimize vibration in the handle when the blade strikes. Andrew has done test cuts on several dha, including a modern custom one which I think has a long tang, so maybe he can comment on whether or not this is true.

galvano · 15th February 2006, 07:23 PM

Ok Ian it is really similar.
From where think that comes it your?
galvano

Ian · 21st February 2006, 08:49 PM

Galvano:

I believe that my sword comes from Northern Thailand/Laos, where many of the "Montagnard" peoples live. Neighboring Vietnam is also a possibility.

Ian.

Mark · 21st February 2006, 08:58 PM

An interesting piece of information possibly pertinent to these swords comes from a comment that the head weapons curator at the Thai National Museum made to our intrepid field operative, Dan Wilke. She said these look a lot like old Thai cavalry polearms.

One wonders if it is a case of derivation, or of convergent evolution. I don't imagine that there is much in the way of cavalry used up in the mountains of Annam, and a longhandled blade has its advantages apart from being able to reach people on the ground from the back of a horse. Still, I have this fantasy of a lost Thai cavalry unit settling down in the highlands and passing down their familiar chopper design to their decendents.

Titus Pullo · 21st February 2006, 10:59 PM

Hi, Andrew! I hope it's alright to call you Andrew. I don't know how to address you...you are probably way older than I am!

Anyway, I've been meaning to ask you for quite sometime now about your wife. You mention quite a few time that your wife know a great deal about northern Thailand culture. Is it, by any chance, she is from northern Thailand?

Titus Pullo · 21st February 2006, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

An interesting piece of information possibly pertinent to these swords comes from a comment that the head weapons curator at the Thai National Museum made to our intrepid field operative, Dan Wilke. She said these look a lot like old Thai cavalry polearms.

One wonders if it is a case of derivation, or of convergent evolution. I don't imagine that there is much in the way of cavalry used up in the mountains of Annam, and a longhandled blade has its advantages apart from being able to reach people on the ground from the back of a horse. Still, I have this fantasy of a lost Thai cavalry unit settling down in the highlands and passing down their familiar chopper design to their decendents.

I've heard something like the way that the way they used to fight, in the beginning, was holding a sword with two hands (kindda like the Samurais). Later, ofcourse, the handle was made a lot shorter with the hilt tappering down to a narrow end. This was an advantage because they change from fighting, holding the sword with two hands, to holding it with only one hand, and ofcourse with another sword, or a shield, in the other hand. So this might have been used interchangabally. If you've seen the movie, "The Legend of Suriyothai", she fought on the elephant's back with this type of polearm. Later the blade was made shorter and heavier for using on elephants'.

Andrew · 22nd February 2006, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titus Pullo

Hi, Andrew! I hope it's alright to call you Andrew. I don't know how to address you...you are probably way older than I am!

Anyway, I've been meaning to ask you for quite sometime now about your wife. You mention quite a few time that your wife know a great deal about northern Thailand culture. Is it, by any chance, she is from northern Thailand?

Hi Titus. Please do call me Andrew. I doubt I'm that much older than you. I am much younger and far less experienced than many members here.

My wife does love Thai food, but she is 100% Irish.

Andrew · 22nd February 2006, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titus Pullo

I've heard something like the way that the way they used to fight, in the beginning, was holding a sword with two hands (kindda like the Samurais). Later, ofcourse, the handle was made a lot shorter with the hilt tappering down to a narrow end. This was an advantage because they change from fighting, holding the sword with two hands, to holding it with only one hand, and ofcourse with another sword, or a shield, in the other hand. So this might have been used interchangabally.

Titus,

Where did you hear this? I am genuinely interested in your sources, particularly if they refute my understaning and beliefs about these swords.

Best,
Andrew

PUFF · 1st March 2006, 11:57 AM

I understood that Titus tried to explain a kind of polearm. Very much close to japanese "Naginata". Thai version of Naginatas are called "Ngaw". The blades construct are similar to "Dahb" There are short version of "Ngaw" too.

However, there are blades which are evolved from "Dahb". We called them "Dahb Chaleay". They have extended handle for more powerful chop. IMHO, Andrew picture might fall in this catagory.

Titus Pullo · 2nd March 2006, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Titus,

Where did you hear this? I am genuinely interested in your sources, particularly if they refute my understaning and beliefs about these swords.

Best,
Andrew

I've seen pictures of them, and in historical movies such as Suriyothai, and I think I must have read some from your website. I know that the way the Siamese fought in the early days of great conflicts is different than later. Later, the style of fighting with swords is a lot faster...ofcourse fighting with one hand is a lot faster. The reason is that their was a need to fight more. The Burmese threat had become increasingly very dangerous, quarrelsome, and very real. The Burman, the largest ethnic group in Burma, had subdued and passified other ethnic groups living in Burma and are also using their man power to fight wars with Ayutthaya, which was a very difficult kingdom to conquer. As a result, they always outnumbered the Ayutthaya. They only managed to seize it twice, and both times the kingdom was weaken by internal corruptions, bickerings, and traitors willing to give up the secrets of the citie's defense for a price (at one the traitor was no other than the father of the Siamese heroic King Narasuen, a great national hero...the irony that is). But what the Burmese failed to destroy was the people's spirit...like Hannabal failed to destroy Rome's spirit...the spirit of the Siamese people lived on and eventually they drove out the Burmese like Rome's vengance against Carthage and Hannibal, which eventually lead to the destruction of Carthage itself. So they didn't really conquer Siam, which went on the raise another army to defeat the Burmese like Rome.

Titus Pullo · 2nd March 2006, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

I understood that Titus tried to explain a kind of polearm. Very much close to japanese "Naginata". Thai version of Naginatas are called "Ngaw". The blades construct are similar to "Dahb" There are short version of "Ngaw" too.

However, there are blades which are evolved from "Dahb". We called them "Dahb Chaleay". They have extended handle for more powerful chop. IMHO, Andrew picture might fall in this catagory.

hey, welcome to the forum! I'm from Thailand, too. But I spent most of my late childhood until now in the US. It's nice talking to another Thai on the forum, though!

PUFF · 2nd March 2006, 07:24 AM

Hi Titus, Nice to meet you here. How fluence your Thai are? There is a section on Thai weapons on www.thaiblades.com You can also share your knowledge overthere

Titus Pullo · 2nd March 2006, 09:36 AM

Actually, my accent is perfect. However, I'm a little rusty because I've spoken English more than Thai, so it may take a while before I can speak with perfect vocubulary.

Andrew · 4th March 2006, 03:04 AM

Excellent information, gentlemen. Thank you for sharing with us.

I've read of possible ancient (i.e. pre-7th century) Persian influences on the region speculated to be associated with Vishnu worship, as well as periodic trade. I was unaware of any significant Persian immigration into Siam until now.

Can either of you direct me to a good English-language source for ancient Thai martial arts and/or military tactics? Unfortunately, the sources I have available were primarily published in the west, and some information strikes me as a bit suspect.

12th February 2006, 08:38 PM	#1
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	what is it hi blade 46 cm hilt 55 cm Attached Images

13th February 2006, 07:14 PM	#4
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	thanks many thanks Andrew for this clarification !!!!! galvano

14th February 2006, 10:05 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Another example. Similar style of wrap on the hilt. Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 15th February 2006 at 12:36 AM.

21st February 2006, 08:49 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Probably Laos Galvano: I believe that my sword comes from Northern Thailand/Laos, where many of the "Montagnard" peoples live. Neighboring Vietnam is also a possibility. Ian.

12th February 2006, 08:51 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	This is a form of dha. From one of the various hill tribes loosly referred to as "Montagnard". Probably from Laos, but some are attributed to Vietnam and Thailand. The very long handle, small disc guard and "hatchet" tip are typical of the form. Nice example. The scabbard looks newer than the blade and handle, and these scabbards are most often seen completely bound with rattan strips.

12th February 2006, 10:43 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Some other examples:

15th February 2006, 02:10 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Out of curiosity, how far up the hilt does the tang go on these dhas?

15th February 2006, 05:18 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Not very far, Fearn. Most dha have short, spiked tangs, and these are consistent. Mark did an informal study about this a while ago and there's an old thread in the archives about it.

15th February 2006, 06:26 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Indeed. You find through tangs very rarely in dha, and I sometimes wonder at their authenticity. I read in Ferrars & Ferrars' "Burma" that the short tang is used to minimize vibration in the handle when the blade strikes. Andrew has done test cuts on several dha, including a modern custom one which I think has a long tang, so maybe he can comment on whether or not this is true.

15th February 2006, 07:23 PM	#9
galvano Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 178	Ok Ian it is really similar. From where think that comes it your? galvano

21st February 2006, 08:58 PM	#11
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	An interesting piece of information possibly pertinent to these swords comes from a comment that the head weapons curator at the Thai National Museum made to our intrepid field operative, Dan Wilke. She said these look a lot like old Thai cavalry polearms. One wonders if it is a case of derivation, or of convergent evolution. I don't imagine that there is much in the way of cavalry used up in the mountains of Annam, and a longhandled blade has its advantages apart from being able to reach people on the ground from the back of a horse. Still, I have this fantasy of a lost Thai cavalry unit settling down in the highlands and passing down their familiar chopper design to their decendents.

21st February 2006, 10:59 PM	#12
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Hi, Andrew! I hope it's alright to call you Andrew. I don't know how to address you...you are probably way older than I am! Anyway, I've been meaning to ask you for quite sometime now about your wife. You mention quite a few time that your wife know a great deal about northern Thailand culture. Is it, by any chance, she is from northern Thailand?

1st March 2006, 11:57 AM	#16
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I understood that Titus tried to explain a kind of polearm. Very much close to japanese "Naginata". Thai version of Naginatas are called "Ngaw". The blades construct are similar to "Dahb" There are short version of "Ngaw" too. However, there are blades which are evolved from "Dahb". We called them "Dahb Chaleay". They have extended handle for more powerful chop. IMHO, Andrew picture might fall in this catagory.

2nd March 2006, 07:24 AM	#19
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Hi Titus, Nice to meet you here. How fluence your Thai are? There is a section on Thai weapons on www.thaiblades.com You can also share your knowledge overthere

2nd March 2006, 09:36 AM	#20
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Actually, my accent is perfect. However, I'm a little rusty because I've spoken English more than Thai, so it may take a while before I can speak with perfect vocubulary.

4th March 2006, 03:04 AM	#21
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Excellent information, gentlemen. Thank you for sharing with us. I've read of possible ancient (i.e. pre-7th century) Persian influences on the region speculated to be associated with Vishnu worship, as well as periodic trade. I was unaware of any significant Persian immigration into Siam until now. Can either of you direct me to a good English-language source for ancient Thai martial arts and/or military tactics? Unfortunately, the sources I have available were primarily published in the west, and some information strikes me as a bit suspect.