Kindjal(qama)s produced for dancing?

[sakimori]

Hello all,starting my first thread in this forum...
Really interested in this type of weapon and noticed that kindjal or qamas are often used in georgian dances,which makes me wonder:how do we know if this dagger is produced for dancing use,or concerned as a weapon might be used in defence need?
Act of throwing a dagger into ground seems often performed by dancers,which might be a challenge for steel crafts,so I suppose kindjal/qamas which have lesser angles of the blade tip won't do a good job in a show.(maybe I underrated the toughness of steel,a sharp blade might stuck too deep in the ground though)
It would be great that some members in this forum would share some informations if you have seen a sword dance in close distance,found some kindjal/qama pieces stated to be use in dance on internet,or heard anything about it.
(PS:sorry if this thread reads odd...poor english)

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by sakimori

It would be great that some members in this forum would share some informations if you have seen a sword dance in close distance,found some kindjal/qama pieces stated to be use in dance on internet,or heard anything about it.
(PS:sorry if this thread reads odd...poor english)

Hello Sakimori,

a little late but here is a Georgian dancing dagger. Around 1950 made I think. The probably laminated blade with twistcore is thin, flexible and very sharp. The point is 90 degree bended, maybe from throwing in the ground.
And it is a good idea to avoid trouble with georgian dancers because this is really not just a poor theatre dagger.

best wishes,
Roland

[ariel]

"Dancing" kindjals were specifically created for exotic national ensembles, perhaps no earlier than 1930s.
Up until then, genuine village dances were conducted with real things. Georgians were poor enough to afford a trinket used only occasionally and for entertainment purposes.

And, BTW, the one shown here is a VERY modern creation. It will become an antique not earlier than 100 years from now:-)))))

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by ariel

"Dancing" kindjals were specifically created for exotic national ensembles, perhaps no earlier than 1930s.
Up until then, genuine village dances were conducted with real things. Georgians were poor enough to afford a trinket used only occasionally and for entertainment purposes.

And, BTW, the one shown here is a VERY modern creation. It will become an antique not earlier than 100 years from now:-)))))

its newer than that its post soviet era. any are not for dancing but actually souvenir knives that have a think blade unsharpened and held with seal wax to pass stupid soviet and russian cold weapon laws of the post ww2 period.

[ariel]

Just to elaborate on the last statement: in the former USSR one needed an official police permit to buy a hunting knife from a sports goods store. Each such knife was numbered and registered. That was allegedly to prevent criminal violence, but in reality to leave citizens unarmed. The Party, in its infinite wisdom, never thought about kitchen knives, pitchforks, broken bottles and a multitude of improvised or self-made sharpies. Eventually, the regime crumbled under its own weight, with no armed struggle. The Kindjal shown by Roland was made well after that:-)

[sakimori]

Thanks to you all!Thought i won't get any replys in this thread.Very educational. Learn something new everyday in this forum!

[kamachate]

Hi all.
Thanks to Sakimori, this is really an interesting thread, reminding me the old days I danced and taught
When considering "dancing daggers", I think we are dealing with two different types: The ones for throwing, and the ones for the "costume". I agree with Ariel: Before the exile, and soon after that (before the Caucasian dances became a "show"), people were dancing with real kindjals, there is (or was) especially an old dance among the Circassians: The male was making figures, and then suddenly, was throwing his kindjal before the girl he wanted to dance with. In this occasion, a real kindjal would not have any difficulties to go through soil, or wood, where ever they are dancing (or the girl's foot )
Back to the real subject: In the dancing groups, (here is an example among many: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA89TKpDlCk ) especially after WW2, specific kindjals were produced for the dancers. These are about 45 cm, without a scabbard, light, thin, not sharp at all, but pointed daggers suitable for the dances, to stick on a wooden surface. The key is the weight, and the thickness, for I remember us ordering 16 kindjals to a blacksmith, but suffering real pain in my mouth, because they were too heavy . So, these have nothing to do with real or souvenir ones.
The second type for the folk dance costumes is rather variable: After the "Georgian type kindjals" spread out, most people thought these could have been used in folk dances, but this is not the case. These ones have weak welding points, and low quality material that can unfasten quickly, not suitable for fast and flippy Caucasian dances. It is the same for "throwing", since you need many during the dance, you do not have a scabbard, but the weakest point, the handle needs to have stamina, so it has to be riveted wood or horn, rather than a piece of gummed metal welded loosely. Instead of real or Georgian imitation kindjals, dance groups were using light, short (about 40 cms) and solid molded "toy" kindjals for decoration (below I add the images of mine, and a picture with a real one, to compare the size). Nowadays, the assemblages carry more genuine looking kindjals on their belts. As the dances became more authentic, the groups left the "whole-silver looking" kindjals and began using realistic kindjals, with two metal pieces on the scabbard (of course this depends on the character on the scene).
To be honest, and unfortunately, I have never - ever seen a serious Caucasian dancing assemblage, neither in the Caucasus, nor in diaspora, carrying the shiny and stony Georgian souvenir kindjals for any purpose, either for decoration, or to throw.
I hope it was not long (as I told, old days )
Best,
Kamachate

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by kamachate

Hi all.
...
I hope it was not long (as I told, old days )
Best,
Kamachate

THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your very interesting comment!

Marius

PS: Can you read Georgian?!

[kamachate]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your very interesting comment!

Marius

PS: Can you read Georgian?!

You are welcome, but unfortunately cannot read Georgian.

[sakimori]

Originally Posted by kamachate

Hi all.
Thanks to Sakimori, this is really an interesting thread, reminding me the old days I danced and taught
When considering "dancing daggers", I think we are dealing with two different types: The ones for throwing, and the ones for the "costume". I agree with Ariel: Before the exile, and soon after that (before the Caucasian dances became a "show"), people were dancing with real kindjals, there is (or was) especially an old dance among the Circassians: The male was making figures, and then suddenly, was throwing his kindjal before the girl he wanted to dance with. In this occasion, a real kindjal would not have any difficulties to go through soil, or wood, where ever they are dancing (or the girl's foot )
Back to the real subject: In the dancing groups, (here is an example among many: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA89TKpDlCk ) especially after WW2, specific kindjals were produced for the dancers. These are about 45 cm, without a scabbard, light, thin, not sharp at all, but pointed daggers suitable for the dances, to stick on a wooden surface. The key is the weight, and the thickness, for I remember us ordering 16 kindjals to a blacksmith, but suffering real pain in my mouth, because they were too heavy . So, these have nothing to do with real or souvenir ones.
The second type for the folk dance costumes is rather variable: After the "Georgian type kindjals" spread out, most people thought these could have been used in folk dances, but this is not the case. These ones have weak welding points, and low quality material that can unfasten quickly, not suitable for fast and flippy Caucasian dances. It is the same for "throwing", since you need many during the dance, you do not have a scabbard, but the weakest point, the handle needs to have stamina, so it has to be riveted wood or horn, rather than a piece of gummed metal welded loosely. Instead of real or Georgian imitation kindjals, dance groups were using light, short (about 40 cms) and solid molded "toy" kindjals for decoration (below I add the images of mine, and a picture with a real one, to compare the size). Nowadays, the assemblages carry more genuine looking kindjals on their belts. As the dances became more authentic, the groups left the "whole-silver looking" kindjals and began using realistic kindjals, with two metal pieces on the scabbard (of course this depends on the character on the scene).
To be honest, and unfortunately, I have never - ever seen a serious Caucasian dancing assemblage, neither in the Caucasus, nor in diaspora, carrying the shiny and stony Georgian souvenir kindjals for any purpose, either for decoration, or to throw.
I hope it was not long (as I told, old days )
Best,
Kamachate

Thank your for your reply kamachate!It's great to have you here sharing your experience