Bronze keris ?

David · 24th January 2017, 05:30 AM

Thanks for posting that example Alan.

A. G. Maisey · 24th January 2017, 06:06 AM

I've forgotten most of this Donny, but in some Hindu sacrifices the preferred blade needed to be bronze, in my memory the Horse Sacrifice required a bronze blade to be used, but don't trust my memory, it is sometimes faulty.

In Jawa it seems likely that blood sacrifice occurred at Candi Prambanan, and blood sacrifice is a part of Hindu ritual --- and of course Islamic ritual.

You won't find this sort of thing reading up about keris, to understand the keris you do not read books about keris, you need to read extensively in anthropology, history, sociology, comparative religion, art.

You do not study keris to learn keris.

Battara · 25th January 2017, 12:38 AM

Thank you Alan.

satsujinken · 25th January 2017, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I've forgotten most of this Donny, but in some Hindu sacrifices the preferred blade needed to be bronze, in my memory the Horse Sacrifice required a bronze blade to be used, but don't trust my memory, it is sometimes faulty.

In Jawa it seems likely that blood sacrifice occurred at Candi Prambanan, and blood sacrifice is a part of Hindu ritual --- and of course Islamic ritual.

You won't find this sort of thing reading up about keris, to understand the keris you do not read books about keris, you need to read extensively in anthropology, history, sociology, comparative religion, art.

You do not study keris to learn keris.

no wonder I never heard of it before. And that's exactly why I come here ... to ask for advice from you

Donny

Pusaka · 30th January 2017, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I've forgotten most of this Donny, but in some Hindu sacrifices the preferred blade needed to be bronze, in my memory the Horse Sacrifice required a bronze blade to be used, but don't trust my memory, it is sometimes faulty.

In Jawa it seems likely that blood sacrifice occurred at Candi Prambanan, and blood sacrifice is a part of Hindu ritual --- and of course Islamic ritual.

You won't find this sort of thing reading up about keris, to understand the keris you do not read books about keris, you need to read extensively in anthropology, history, sociology, comparative religion, art.

You do not study keris to learn keris.

At the time the Vedas were wrote (and thus the horse sacrifices) I think they only had copper and bronze blades so there was no possibility of using an Iron or steel blade. Some Indians claim however Ayas is Iron and use this to claim that Indians were the first to forge Iron blades (despite the fact Aryans came into India from the North thus even if it were true Aryans were not Indians)

A. G. Maisey · 30th January 2017, 09:53 PM

Thank you for your comment Pusaka.

Just to set the record straight:-

Yes, the Aryan people did enter the Indian Sub-Continent from the North, by about 1500BC they had entered the Sub-Continent and had made contact with the Indus Valley civilisation, which was at the time of contact a bronze age culture. Historians refer to the era that the Aryan Peoples began as the Vedic Age, its duration was approximately 1200BC to 400BC, after which the Hindu belief system supplanted the observance of purely vedic ritual, which is known as shrauta, or belonging to the Vedas.

However, the Iron Age was well and truly under way in the Indian Sub-Continent by 1200BC, and some scholars date the beginning or iron smelting in India to as early as 1700BC. One thing is true:- by 1300BC the working of iron in India was sufficiently advanced to permit the manufacture of large artifacts. In Uttar Pradesh the beginnings of iron technology seems to date from about 1800BC.

The entry of the Aryan people into the Sub-Continent marks the beginning of the Vedic Age in Indian history. It is known as the Vedic age because it was during this period that the Vedas were written. It is generally agreed that there are four Vedas:- Rigveda, Samaveda, Yujurveda, Atharvaveda, and each of these Vedas is further classified into four parts, one of which is the Samhitas, which were originally written before 1100BC, and possibly as early as 1700BC. The Samhitas were the earliest part of the Vedas, and were probably began before entry to the Sub-Continent, however, before 500BC the Samhitas were revised, probably to harmonise their inclusion into the full body of the Vedas. The Samhitas deal with mantras and blessings.

All the other Vedas were written during the Vedic Period in India. Originally they were seen as compilations of knowledge to used be for guidance, rather than purely religious texts. They were written in Vedic Sanscrit.

The record is very clear:- the Aryan People did not bring the Vedas with them into the Indian Sub-Continent, the Vedas were written in the Indian Sub-Continent.

Nor did the Aryan People initiate the iron technology of India, the role of the Aryan People, or more correctly, the Vedic People, was to develop and spread material culture into the Sub-Continent. The people who were indigenous to the Indian Sub-Continent initiated iron technology long before the Vedic Age began, but the Vedic People helped to develop and spread this technology.

The correct name of the Horse Sacrifice is Ashvamedha.

In ancient India kings used this ritual to prove their right to rule, very briefly it involved allowing a horse to roam free for a year, and all the land that it walked upon became the domain of the king. After the year was over, the horse was sacrificed.

However, this sacrifice of a horse was not limited to kings proving their right to rule. Horse sacrifice also had a place in some burial rites and in the entry of a person from another social division into the warrior division of society. Mobility between social divisions was possible in early times. If a member of the warrior division was raised in rank, and a ritual was deemed to be appropriate, horse sacrifice was also used.

By the time that Shrauta rituals, including the Horse Sacrifice, were common practice in India, iron technology was already well established, thus there was a choice of bronze or of iron, as the material for the implement to be used in the carrying out of the sacrifice.

Were the Indian people the first to use iron?

In classical history terms, the Hittites were credited with initiating iron technology, and that usage dates from about 1500BC.

Discoveries in recent years seem to date the beginning of iron technology in India to at least a similar date and very possibly much earlier. At Lahuradewa in Uttar Pradesh iron artifacts dating from the period 1800BC to 1100BC have been found. There is general agreement in academic circles that the Indian Iron Age began in the 13th century BC, by which time there was a lot of iron smelting going on in India.

However, both the Hittite and the Indian use of iron do not come anywhere near the use of iron in ancient Mesopotamia, where the evidence suggests usage that dates back to around 3000BC. Then we have a tomb discovery of an iron dagger blade in Anatolia (ancient Turkey) that dates from around 2500BC.

mariusgmioc · 31st January 2017, 09:23 AM

Very interesting! Thank you Alan for this concise introduction to history!

A. G. Maisey · 31st January 2017, 09:31 AM

Thanks Marius, I've always found this sort of stuff interesting, and the metal working skills that were developed on the Indian Sub-Continent are truly amazing.

It has been said that the peoples of the Sub-Continent are the Masters of Metal.

In fact, it is entirely possible that there would be no pamor construction in Javanese weaponry, but for the influx of Indian metal workers, especially smiths, to the North Coast of Jawa.

However, here we talk about keris, and that means Maritime South East Asia, and the interesting thing in this area is that there was no distinct bronze age nor a distinct beginning to the use of iron. Both technologies appear to have begun and developed at the same time.

Pusaka · 1st February 2017, 03:21 PM

A. G. Maisey

One problem is why shouldn't Iron be mentioned in the Vedas when everything else is. If at the time the Vedas were composed they knew about it they would have wrote about it. The term Ayas is often translated Iron however many scholars do not believe Ayas is Iron.

According to the mythology long before the Aryans entered India an Asura King called maya had escaped the destruction of tripura. He was a master astronomer, metallurgist, architect, herbalist, linguist and siddha. He is known to have wrote many texts among them the prenarva veda, the first veda.

So in India first we have an assuric civilisation followed by an aryan civilisation. The aryans however appear to be later relatives of the asuras.

The homeland of the Aryans in vedic text is called Arya Varta, Airyana Vaeja in Zoroastrian text. Maya the Asuran king was born in Romakapura. Both the asuran homeland and the later aryan homeland are noted as being in the same geographic area, both being at the immediate base of the Sumeru therefore they are as peoples related.

24th January 2017, 05:30 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,103	Thanks for posting that example Alan.

24th January 2017, 06:06 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,860	I've forgotten most of this Donny, but in some Hindu sacrifices the preferred blade needed to be bronze, in my memory the Horse Sacrifice required a bronze blade to be used, but don't trust my memory, it is sometimes faulty. In Jawa it seems likely that blood sacrifice occurred at Candi Prambanan, and blood sacrifice is a part of Hindu ritual --- and of course Islamic ritual. You won't find this sort of thing reading up about keris, to understand the keris you do not read books about keris, you need to read extensively in anthropology, history, sociology, comparative religion, art. You do not study keris to learn keris.

25th January 2017, 12:38 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	Thank you Alan.

30th January 2017, 09:53 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,860	Thank you for your comment Pusaka. Just to set the record straight:- Yes, the Aryan people did enter the Indian Sub-Continent from the North, by about 1500BC they had entered the Sub-Continent and had made contact with the Indus Valley civilisation, which was at the time of contact a bronze age culture. Historians refer to the era that the Aryan Peoples began as the Vedic Age, its duration was approximately 1200BC to 400BC, after which the Hindu belief system supplanted the observance of purely vedic ritual, which is known as shrauta, or belonging to the Vedas. However, the Iron Age was well and truly under way in the Indian Sub-Continent by 1200BC, and some scholars date the beginning or iron smelting in India to as early as 1700BC. One thing is true:- by 1300BC the working of iron in India was sufficiently advanced to permit the manufacture of large artifacts. In Uttar Pradesh the beginnings of iron technology seems to date from about 1800BC. The entry of the Aryan people into the Sub-Continent marks the beginning of the Vedic Age in Indian history. It is known as the Vedic age because it was during this period that the Vedas were written. It is generally agreed that there are four Vedas:- Rigveda, Samaveda, Yujurveda, Atharvaveda, and each of these Vedas is further classified into four parts, one of which is the Samhitas, which were originally written before 1100BC, and possibly as early as 1700BC. The Samhitas were the earliest part of the Vedas, and were probably began before entry to the Sub-Continent, however, before 500BC the Samhitas were revised, probably to harmonise their inclusion into the full body of the Vedas. The Samhitas deal with mantras and blessings. All the other Vedas were written during the Vedic Period in India. Originally they were seen as compilations of knowledge to used be for guidance, rather than purely religious texts. They were written in Vedic Sanscrit. The record is very clear:- the Aryan People did not bring the Vedas with them into the Indian Sub-Continent, the Vedas were written in the Indian Sub-Continent. Nor did the Aryan People initiate the iron technology of India, the role of the Aryan People, or more correctly, the Vedic People, was to develop and spread material culture into the Sub-Continent. The people who were indigenous to the Indian Sub-Continent initiated iron technology long before the Vedic Age began, but the Vedic People helped to develop and spread this technology. The correct name of the Horse Sacrifice is Ashvamedha. In ancient India kings used this ritual to prove their right to rule, very briefly it involved allowing a horse to roam free for a year, and all the land that it walked upon became the domain of the king. After the year was over, the horse was sacrificed. However, this sacrifice of a horse was not limited to kings proving their right to rule. Horse sacrifice also had a place in some burial rites and in the entry of a person from another social division into the warrior division of society. Mobility between social divisions was possible in early times. If a member of the warrior division was raised in rank, and a ritual was deemed to be appropriate, horse sacrifice was also used. By the time that Shrauta rituals, including the Horse Sacrifice, were common practice in India, iron technology was already well established, thus there was a choice of bronze or of iron, as the material for the implement to be used in the carrying out of the sacrifice. Were the Indian people the first to use iron? In classical history terms, the Hittites were credited with initiating iron technology, and that usage dates from about 1500BC. Discoveries in recent years seem to date the beginning of iron technology in India to at least a similar date and very possibly much earlier. At Lahuradewa in Uttar Pradesh iron artifacts dating from the period 1800BC to 1100BC have been found. There is general agreement in academic circles that the Indian Iron Age began in the 13th century BC, by which time there was a lot of iron smelting going on in India. However, both the Hittite and the Indian use of iron do not come anywhere near the use of iron in ancient Mesopotamia, where the evidence suggests usage that dates back to around 3000BC. Then we have a tomb discovery of an iron dagger blade in Anatolia (ancient Turkey) that dates from around 2500BC.

31st January 2017, 09:23 AM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Very interesting! Thank you Alan for this concise introduction to history!

31st January 2017, 09:31 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,860	Thanks Marius, I've always found this sort of stuff interesting, and the metal working skills that were developed on the Indian Sub-Continent are truly amazing. It has been said that the peoples of the Sub-Continent are the Masters of Metal. In fact, it is entirely possible that there would be no pamor construction in Javanese weaponry, but for the influx of Indian metal workers, especially smiths, to the North Coast of Jawa. However, here we talk about keris, and that means Maritime South East Asia, and the interesting thing in this area is that there was no distinct bronze age nor a distinct beginning to the use of iron. Both technologies appear to have begun and developed at the same time.

1st February 2017, 03:21 PM	#9
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	A. G. Maisey One problem is why shouldn't Iron be mentioned in the Vedas when everything else is. If at the time the Vedas were composed they knew about it they would have wrote about it. The term Ayas is often translated Iron however many scholars do not believe Ayas is Iron. According to the mythology long before the Aryans entered India an Asura King called maya had escaped the destruction of tripura. He was a master astronomer, metallurgist, architect, herbalist, linguist and siddha. He is known to have wrote many texts among them the prenarva veda, the first veda. So in India first we have an assuric civilisation followed by an aryan civilisation. The aryans however appear to be later relatives of the asuras. The homeland of the Aryans in vedic text is called Arya Varta, Airyana Vaeja in Zoroastrian text. Maya the Asuran king was born in Romakapura. Both the asuran homeland and the later aryan homeland are noted as being in the same geographic area, both being at the immediate base of the Sumeru therefore they are as peoples related.