Unknown knife, Coachman knife?

[Sajen]

Today I've purchased my first "new" knife of the year, the seller stated that it is a Coachman knife or a hunting knife from around 1760. Origin Middle Europe? Germany? My online search wasn't from any success, I don't find something similar. The handle should be from rock crystal, that's what the seller stated. Scabbard 12 lot silver (750), again the statement from the seller. The knife is 26,8 cm long. Attached are the pictures from the seller. Sadly the pictures from the gold(?) inlay at the blade not very clear. I would be very thankful for every comment since I know next to nothing about European knives like this but this knife was so appealing to my eyes and the price more as good.

Thank you in advance!

[fernando]

Most interesting piece, Sajen.
Do you think it has an European look ?
No marks in the blade ?
... and assuming the scabbard is silver, which looks like, being European would have the 12 lot silver hallmark punched ... don't you think so ?
It will be interesting to see clear pictures of the inlay.

[Sajen]

Thank you Fernando,

I am very unsure, my first thought was Crete but the handle would be more as unusual for a Cretan knife. I've posted it here because the seller seems to be sure that it is German or Middle Europe. For marks in the blade and for a punched hallmark I can look when I have it in my hands. To this time I will post also better pictures from the inlay.

Do you think the thread should be moved to the ethno forum?

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

I've done some search, the inlay look like I have seen it by Greek knives now. Maybe it will be the best to move it to the ethno forum!

Thank you Fernando!

[motan]

Hi Sajen, I am really not an expert, but I tend to agree with Fernando. The engraving on the blade is typical of Cretan knifes and I have not seen similar style on any other blades. The style of the scabbard in general and specifically the flowery decorations is of Ottoman Greece. I have not seen this type of crystal handle on any Greek dagger and it may be a rare feature (which makes it all the more interesting).

[Tim Simmons]

South America's???

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

South America's???

Hello Tim,

interesting suggestion but I am in the moment more inclined to think that it is some sort of bichaq.

[TVV]

The scabbard style is Balkan and the blade decoration distinctly Greek. Our Greek members would probably have more insight than me.

Regards,
Teodor

[stelio]

Hello Sajem!

It is a Greek knife from
the first half of 19th century.

If you ever get bored send me message.
Very beautiful knife.

Thank you for sharing this us
Stelios

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by stelio

Hello Sajem!

It is a Greek knife from
the first half of 19th century.

If you ever get bored send me message.
Very beautiful knife.

Thank you for sharing this us
Stelios

Thank you so much Stelios! So I get with some hints I received the correct direction! How you would call this knife? Is it a bichaq? In the case I get bored of it I will let you know!

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by TVV

The scabbard style is Balkan and the blade decoration distinctly Greek. Our Greek members would probably have more insight than me.

Thank you as well Teodor!

Regards,
Detlef

[stelio]

Hello Sajen!!!

We could say bichaq, if you thought that was in the era of the Ottoman Empire.
Has many similarities with Ottoman and Balkan bichaq.The symbol in blade is purely greek and frequently encountered in greek knife.
The strange would say it is the grip,maybe have been added later but this does not do it he loses in beauty

my best wishes !!!
Stelios

[Sajen]

Hi Stelio,

have received the knife and was able to remove carefully the rust. Since the blade is very tiny is the inlay work outstanding. Soon as possible I will take pictures and show they here. I am correct that this will have been a dagger for someone with wealthy status?
I think the handle is original, it shows much use. And also when the seller was very good not to show the repaired handle by his pictures is it good visible but well repaired. The scabbard is pure thick metal without wooden inlay. Can you tell me more about this sort of daggers? And maybe examples?

Regards,
Detlef

[drac2k]

First let me commend you on your outstanding purchase ! If the handle was made of ivory or bone, I would swear, in my poorly uninformed opinion that it was an Indonesian dha or something of that nature.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by drac2k

First let me commend you on your outstanding purchase ! If the handle was made of ivory or bone, I would swear, in my poorly uninformed opinion that it was an Indonesian dha or something of that nature.

Thank you Drac2k, but you will hardly find an Indonesian dha! But go up to the thread and you will see that I also was on a wrong way by searching for the origin.

Here two pictures of greek blade engravings from old threads.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Detlef, do you think perhaps this was a woman's knife given its small size? Or maybe a child's knife? The quality of workmanship is apparent from the seller's pictures. There may well be a reasonable amount of silver in the sheath if it is made from solid sterling silver. Nice find.

Ian

[Sajen]

Hi Ian,

yes, very good possible. And it seems to be a pure stabbing weapon, the edge isn't sharpened.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by motan

Hi Sajen, I am really not an expert, but I tend to agree with Fernando. The engraving on the blade is typical of Cretan knifes and I have not seen similar style on any other blades. The style of the scabbard in general and specifically the flowery decorations is of Ottoman Greece. I have not seen this type of crystal handle on any Greek dagger and it may be a rare feature (which makes it all the more interesting).

Hi Motan, thank you for comment! Like you see by this thread I know nothing about this knives. But with the impulse Fernando has given and a private mail and the confirmation from Stelio I see it now byself. But until now I don't have found a very similar example, not only the unusual handle material but also blade shape and size seems to be unusual. It's inside the scabbard nearly similar small like my Vendetta dagger: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=vendetta
So I asked myself the same question Ian asked. (woman dagger?) It is for sure a hidden dagger, there isn't any loop or clip at the scabbard. Also that the edge isn't sharpened seems strange!

Regards,
Detlef

[motan]

Hi Detlef. As I said, I am not an expert and can not help you any further. However, the concept of miniature dagger as concealed weapons, ladies' dagger or children's dagger is intriguing. I have seen several daggers that are much too small for the hand of a grown up man and their purpose remains a mistery to me. I have, for example, a Georgian curved kinjal (can't find the thread) where the grip part of the hilt is only 5 cm. I attaching a photo of an Ottoman bichaq style dagger I missed on an auction that is 18cm long!
Is there any evidence at all for women carrying a dagger in Mediterranean and Middle Eastern societies at all? If they were concealed, why are they so beatifully decorated? Could they be carried by male children of important persons? Maybe other forum members know more.
Regards, Eytan

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by motan

Hi Detlef. As I said, I am not an expert and can not help you any further. However, the concept of miniature dagger as concealed weapons, ladies' dagger or children's dagger is intriguing. I have seen several daggers that are much too small for the hand of a grown up man and their purpose remains a mistery to me. I have, for example, a Georgian curved kinjal (can't find the thread) where the grip part of the hilt is only 5 cm. I attaching a photo of an Ottoman bichaq style dagger I missed on an auction that is 18cm long!
Is there any evidence at all for women carrying a dagger in Mediterranean and Middle Eastern societies at all? If they were concealed, why are they so beatifully decorated? Could they be carried by male children of important persons? Maybe other forum members know more.
Regards, Eytan

Hello Eytan,

thank you for sharing! The answers to your questions you asked would be intersting for me as well!

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Some additional pictures, the last ones together with my Corsican dagger.