Barong origin

danny1976 · 11th December 2016, 01:18 AM

Hi guys ,

Long time ago i was active on the forum but i was still lurking

I did find this barong last week and because it is not my normal field of collecting some comments would be helpful.

The sheat is big and broad , laminated blad that is still razor sharp.
Hilt made of nice wood and good patin on the wood , i have to clean the dirt of.

There is some twisted wire around the handle , might be from copper and below the hilt a ring of black stuff it looks like damar but it is different under that there is copper it looks like a sleeve.
Maybe the black stuff is just a lot of dirt but i want to make sure first what it is before i clean something that has to be there .

This one gives a mighty feeling when you have it in your hand , a good slasher

My questions are; is it a proper one / age / Philippines or maybe Borneo ?

regards,
Danny

Sajen · 11th December 2016, 02:24 AM

Hi Danny,

welcome back my friend!

Very nice old barong you have there!

Think 19th century. The sleeve don't seems to be original to the hilt, it will has had once a closed one from silver but frankly said I wouldn't change something. Could very well be a Borneo barong but this I let guess better the experts!

Regards,
Detlef

David · 11th December 2016, 03:56 AM

Hi Danny. Can you show us a photo that shows the thickness of the blade? Can you measure it near the hilt and tell us how thick it is? Thanks.

Battara · 11th December 2016, 06:13 AM

To my eyes, the scabbard appears more recent. The blade looks fine as well as the pommel.

I wonder if the wrap was either done later to replace damage, or if it was modified by Dayaks in Borneo (after trading the piece).

The scabbard is not a traditional Borneo barong scabbard.

Ian · 11th December 2016, 07:07 AM

Hi Danny,

Welcome back.

I like this old barung. It seems to have started out as a Moro barung, and I think Detlef is right that it is probably late 19th C. It looks as though it has seen some heavy use.

At some point a non-Moro has modified the hilt and replaced the scabbard. IMO the wrapping of the hilt and scabbard have a European/U.S. influence. The scabbard is an approximate and simple representation of a Tausug or similar barung scabbard, but lacks the usual ornate carving of the throat and tip which makes me think it is not from a local culture. Of some interest are the areas of cord binding around the scabbard. This is something I have seen often on GI bring back pieces, especially on theater knives from WWII and later.

The wrapping of the hilt with braided wire is also rather plain and crude, resembling simple whipping that is taught to Boy Scouts here. Again, I don't think this is the work of a Moro, Dayak, or other indigenous person. Similarly, the use of resin or pitch over the metal punto might not be a native repair, although tree and other natural resins are used by local cultures.

The areas of whipping with twine on the scabbard and hilt are not typical of the local peoples, although similar simple wrappings with rattan or other local materials are found. Unfortunately, the pictures provided don't show how the end pieces of twine on the scabbard have been secured. Attached is a graphic of simple European-style whipping applied to rope. The finishing of the end pieces in the third and fourth steps leads to typical features that are easily identified. In particular, you can feel a ridge where the final end (b) has been pulled down behind the whipping itself. You can see such a ridge behind the wire wrapping of the hilt on this sword. On the other hand, local cultures tend to bury the ends by weaving them back into the wrapping layers, usually in a circumferential manner, avoiding the ridge that is formed by the simple whipping technique.

It would help to know a little about the history of this piece. Was it brought back by a serviceman stationed in the Philippines? That's what it most looks like to me. As others have noted, the scabbard seems to be a later replacement.

Ian.

danny1976 · 11th December 2016, 01:22 PM

Hi Guy's

Thanks for the warm welcome back

hmm hoped i had a good find but is seems someone did some creative work on it ..
Maybe i will ask someone to restore the silver sleeve back on the hilt , on the other hand if this is a piece of history ( war bring back ) so maybe it is better if i leave it like this ...
Opinions about this ?

The blade thickness at the spine is 5 mm , I attached a photo.

History about this one , i really don't know because in Holland we don't have any history with the Philippines so not a war bring back.
I did buy this barong in a lot together with some Indonesian pieces, a rudus/ rencong and a Javanese sword .

The come from a old collection, that's al i know .
I will post the rudus later just for the fun of sharing and learning.

Regards,
Danny

Ian · 11th December 2016, 03:34 PM

Danny, thanks for the better pictures of the hilt. They do show an intentional covering of the brass (?) punto and braided wire wrapping with resin or pitch of some sort. This was usually done to prevent shiny pieces reflecting light and revealing the owner's position or presence to an adversary. Both indigenous and non-indigenous folks have used this simple method, especially in mainland SE Asia. The Dayak also use resin on the hilts of some of their swords (parang ihlang, etc.). The use of resin on the hilt of barung is not a practice of the Moro people AFAIK.

I would leave it "as is." It tells a story and if you can identify more of its history all the better. Just my personal opinion.

Ian

danny1976 · 11th December 2016, 10:49 PM

Everybody thanks for the reactions.

Ian ,
interesting story about preventing the shinning of the copper it makes the story nicer

I think i will leave it like this.

Regards,
Danny

11th December 2016, 01:18 AM	#1
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Barong origin Hi guys , Long time ago i was active on the forum but i was still lurking I did find this barong last week and because it is not my normal field of collecting some comments would be helpful. The sheat is big and broad , laminated blad that is still razor sharp. Hilt made of nice wood and good patin on the wood , i have to clean the dirt of. There is some twisted wire around the handle , might be from copper and below the hilt a ring of black stuff it looks like damar but it is different under that there is copper it looks like a sleeve. Maybe the black stuff is just a lot of dirt but i want to make sure first what it is before i clean something that has to be there . This one gives a mighty feeling when you have it in your hand , a good slasher My questions are; is it a proper one / age / Philippines or maybe Borneo ? regards, Danny Attached Images

11th December 2016, 07:07 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Hi Danny, Welcome back. I like this old barung. It seems to have started out as a Moro barung, and I think Detlef is right that it is probably late 19th C. It looks as though it has seen some heavy use. At some point a non-Moro has modified the hilt and replaced the scabbard. IMO the wrapping of the hilt and scabbard have a European/U.S. influence. The scabbard is an approximate and simple representation of a Tausug or similar barung scabbard, but lacks the usual ornate carving of the throat and tip which makes me think it is not from a local culture. Of some interest are the areas of cord binding around the scabbard. This is something I have seen often on GI bring back pieces, especially on theater knives from WWII and later. The wrapping of the hilt with braided wire is also rather plain and crude, resembling simple whipping that is taught to Boy Scouts here. Again, I don't think this is the work of a Moro, Dayak, or other indigenous person. Similarly, the use of resin or pitch over the metal punto might not be a native repair, although tree and other natural resins are used by local cultures. The areas of whipping with twine on the scabbard and hilt are not typical of the local peoples, although similar simple wrappings with rattan or other local materials are found. Unfortunately, the pictures provided don't show how the end pieces of twine on the scabbard have been secured. Attached is a graphic of simple European-style whipping applied to rope. The finishing of the end pieces in the third and fourth steps leads to typical features that are easily identified. In particular, you can feel a ridge where the final end (b) has been pulled down behind the whipping itself. You can see such a ridge behind the wire wrapping of the hilt on this sword. On the other hand, local cultures tend to bury the ends by weaving them back into the wrapping layers, usually in a circumferential manner, avoiding the ridge that is formed by the simple whipping technique. It would help to know a little about the history of this piece. Was it brought back by a serviceman stationed in the Philippines? That's what it most looks like to me. As others have noted, the scabbard seems to be a later replacement. Ian. Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 11th December 2016 at 07:19 AM.

11th December 2016, 01:22 PM	#6
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Hi Guy's Thanks for the warm welcome back hmm hoped i had a good find but is seems someone did some creative work on it .. Maybe i will ask someone to restore the silver sleeve back on the hilt , on the other hand if this is a piece of history ( war bring back ) so maybe it is better if i leave it like this ... Opinions about this ? The blade thickness at the spine is 5 mm , I attached a photo. History about this one , i really don't know because in Holland we don't have any history with the Philippines so not a war bring back. I did buy this barong in a lot together with some Indonesian pieces, a rudus/ rencong and a Javanese sword . The come from a old collection, that's al i know . I will post the rudus later just for the fun of sharing and learning. Regards, Danny Attached Images

11th December 2016, 02:24 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hi Danny, welcome back my friend! Very nice old barong you have there! Think 19th century. The sleeve don't seems to be original to the hilt, it will has had once a closed one from silver but frankly said I wouldn't change something. Could very well be a Borneo barong but this I let guess better the experts! Regards, Detlef

11th December 2016, 03:56 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Hi Danny. Can you show us a photo that shows the thickness of the blade? Can you measure it near the hilt and tell us how thick it is? Thanks.

11th December 2016, 06:13 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	To my eyes, the scabbard appears more recent. The blade looks fine as well as the pommel. I wonder if the wrap was either done later to replace damage, or if it was modified by Dayaks in Borneo (after trading the piece). The scabbard is not a traditional Borneo barong scabbard.

11th December 2016, 03:34 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Danny, thanks for the better pictures of the hilt. They do show an intentional covering of the brass (?) punto and braided wire wrapping with resin or pitch of some sort. This was usually done to prevent shiny pieces reflecting light and revealing the owner's position or presence to an adversary. Both indigenous and non-indigenous folks have used this simple method, especially in mainland SE Asia. The Dayak also use resin on the hilts of some of their swords (parang ihlang, etc.). The use of resin on the hilt of barung is not a practice of the Moro people AFAIK. I would leave it "as is." It tells a story and if you can identify more of its history all the better. Just my personal opinion. Ian

11th December 2016, 10:49 PM	#8
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Everybody thanks for the reactions. Ian , interesting story about preventing the shinning of the copper it makes the story nicer I think i will leave it like this. Regards, Danny