Yataghan/ Interesting Scabbard

rand · 21st September 2016, 10:47 PM

This yataghans scabbard seems to be a nickel alloy with gold wash with very good repousse.[IMG]http://[/IMG]

rand · 21st September 2016, 10:51 PM

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rand · 21st September 2016, 10:59 PM

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rand · 21st September 2016, 11:16 PM

Scabbard near throat has writing- maybe allah?

rand · 21st September 2016, 11:17 PM

Writing scabbard

rand · 22nd September 2016, 03:32 AM

What I find interesting is that the metal for this scabbard seems like a nickel/silver alloy and not coin silver that you usually find with this quality of repousse. Then a thick gold wash or other gold application over it. You can see many wear points of the gold on high locations.

Kubur · 22nd September 2016, 07:21 AM

What is Tombak?

Owing to economic constraints, fewer objects were made of gold and silver in the 18th century and this led to an increase in the manufacture of tombak wares. Brass and copper wares gilded in this way are called "tombak".

The earliest examples of Ottoman metalworking are military equipment. Mamluk influence is apparent in 15th-century forms and styles of decoration. The style called "Classical Ottoman" takes shape during the early 16th century. Of special importance during the 16th and 17th centuries are harmoniously-proportioned candlesticks that have austerely-styled forms and are lacking in embellishment but contemporary with them are interesting examples of works whose surfaces are entirely covered with rumi-palmette compositions, braided friezes, delicate saz leaves, and floral motifs.

Not infrequently one comes across copper pieces that have been stamped with seals or are inscribed. Military equipment such as helmets, chamfrons, and shields manufactured at the Topkapi Sarayi armory were stamped with a seal resembling the brand of the Kayl clan, of which the Ottomans were originally a member. Pots and pans used in the great kitchens of the Ottoman palace frequently contain inscriptions indicating who they belong to. Objects bequeathed to mosques and tombs also bear mostly tughra-like dedicatory inscriptions. Some gilded wares are stamped with a seal indicating that they are only tombak so as to avoid any possibility of deception.

from ebuy
Best, Kubur

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd September 2016, 07:28 AM

Your Yat blade has a date and it says Mohammed Maashaalah and a date which looks like 1391 or 1291....

though I cant see it clearly and as you rightly note Allah on the other picture. Today is 1437...

Battara · 22nd September 2016, 07:48 PM

Unless you have tested the material, to me the patina is looking more like low grade silver with a gold wash, which would actually make more sense and more traditional.

The "ears" and style make me think the piece is Balkan in manufacture.

A very nice piece.

Jerseyman · 22nd September 2016, 11:58 PM

Is it just my computer - or are there no photos of the entire blade and scabbard? Would it be possible to post some so we can see the whole thing?

Thanks.

rand · 23rd September 2016, 03:41 AM

Appreciate the feedback about this piece. The date is hard to read in the photo, it is 1241. The scabbard is definitely not a coin grade silver that you would expect to see, my best guess is a nickel alloy. Which is very unusual and surprising. Will take an overall photo tomorrow and post, but you cab see just about all parts of this sword now. The blade has a core twist, that too is hard to see in the photo's. The shirmani grip scales are in excellent condition, the silver inlay of the blade is an over lapping triangular punch most common on ottoman empire pieces.

Have just not come across a scabbard with this quality that wasn't silver before. The gold wash is very thick, more the sheen of what you would see with gold over copper. But its definitely not upper or silver comprising the scabbard.

Battara · 23rd September 2016, 06:20 AM

Jerseyman has a good point - we need pictures of the whole piece please.....

rand · 23rd September 2016, 01:59 PM

Entire sword and better photo of picture.

rand · 23rd September 2016, 02:03 PM

Writing on blade.

ilias · 24th September 2016, 11:41 AM

Very nice piece rand.
What makes you think is not silver?
Have you tried to clean it?
I will agree with Battara.
The patina looks like more for a silver one.
This kind of work was done only at quality pieces and of course at silver ones.
My guess is that it is silver.

rand · 24th September 2016, 01:56 PM

Hi Ilias,

At first I thought it was silver because of the high quality repousse. But then I tried to clean a small section that did not have gold wash and it definitely does not clean as coin grade silver does. Used flintz silver cleaner, the metal remained black in color and did not polish. In the photo's you can see a green color accumulation in spots, but you can see that wth silver too. The gold wash is thicker on this metal the gold wash on silver, it is also a darker gold color too. This is the first scabbard I have handled like this that is not silver.

kronckew · 24th September 2016, 04:16 PM

someone told me once that many yats had pewter fittings, maybe yours are gilded pewter?

pewter is mostly tin (92%-ish) with a small amt. of copper and antimony to harden it.

tin is the 4th most precious metal after platinum,gold,silver (then tin).
older pewter may have some lead in there too, modern pewter does not.
pewter darkens it's grey colour as it ages.

rand · 25th September 2016, 12:10 AM

Am familiar with pewter which is a different color, hardness and has a different affinity for adhering to gold. This is a hard, silver colored metal, that can oxidize black and also form a green corrosion.

You are right that pewter is used on islamic swords, daggers at times. You can see some pewter just under the bolsa on this yataghan, the scabbard is not pewter.

Thanks,

rand · 25th September 2016, 03:09 PM

Can anyone translate the writing on blade?

Thanks,

Battara · 25th September 2016, 07:32 PM

Rand, I have also worked on low silver content and that black patina can be crazy to get off unless you have jeweler's polishing equipment (which I have).

Also even sterling silver after a time will have a green patina in places.

rand · 25th September 2016, 09:45 PM

Battara,

There is always a chance it could be low grade silver, but I have serious doubt about that. Have had many yataghans with silver scabbards, chapes and throats, but never came across one such as this. If you have a test to suggest let me know.

21st September 2016, 10:47 PM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Yataghan/ Interesting Scabbard This yataghans scabbard seems to be a nickel alloy with gold wash with very good repousse.[IMG]http://[/IMG] Attached Images

21st September 2016, 10:51 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	More Pics More Pics Attached Images

21st September 2016, 10:59 PM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	More Pics More Pics Attached Images

21st September 2016, 11:16 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	More Pics Scabbard near throat has writing- maybe allah? Attached Images

21st September 2016, 11:17 PM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	More Pics Writing scabbard Attached Images

22nd September 2016, 03:32 AM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Scabbard What I find interesting is that the metal for this scabbard seems like a nickel/silver alloy and not coin silver that you usually find with this quality of repousse. Then a thick gold wash or other gold application over it. You can see many wear points of the gold on high locations.

22nd September 2016, 07:21 AM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	What is Tombak? Owing to economic constraints, fewer objects were made of gold and silver in the 18th century and this led to an increase in the manufacture of tombak wares. Brass and copper wares gilded in this way are called "tombak". The earliest examples of Ottoman metalworking are military equipment. Mamluk influence is apparent in 15th-century forms and styles of decoration. The style called "Classical Ottoman" takes shape during the early 16th century. Of special importance during the 16th and 17th centuries are harmoniously-proportioned candlesticks that have austerely-styled forms and are lacking in embellishment but contemporary with them are interesting examples of works whose surfaces are entirely covered with rumi-palmette compositions, braided friezes, delicate saz leaves, and floral motifs. Not infrequently one comes across copper pieces that have been stamped with seals or are inscribed. Military equipment such as helmets, chamfrons, and shields manufactured at the Topkapi Sarayi armory were stamped with a seal resembling the brand of the Kayl clan, of which the Ottomans were originally a member. Pots and pans used in the great kitchens of the Ottoman palace frequently contain inscriptions indicating who they belong to. Objects bequeathed to mosques and tombs also bear mostly tughra-like dedicatory inscriptions. Some gilded wares are stamped with a seal indicating that they are only tombak so as to avoid any possibility of deception. from ebuy Best, Kubur

22nd September 2016, 07:28 AM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Your Yat blade has a date and it says Mohammed Maashaalah and a date which looks like 1391 or 1291.... though I cant see it clearly and as you rightly note Allah on the other picture. Today is 1437...

22nd September 2016, 07:48 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Unless you have tested the material, to me the patina is looking more like low grade silver with a gold wash, which would actually make more sense and more traditional. The "ears" and style make me think the piece is Balkan in manufacture. A very nice piece.

22nd September 2016, 11:58 PM	#10
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Is it just my computer - or are there no photos of the entire blade and scabbard? Would it be possible to post some so we can see the whole thing? Thanks.

23rd September 2016, 03:41 AM	#11
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Scabbard & Stuff Appreciate the feedback about this piece. The date is hard to read in the photo, it is 1241. The scabbard is definitely not a coin grade silver that you would expect to see, my best guess is a nickel alloy. Which is very unusual and surprising. Will take an overall photo tomorrow and post, but you cab see just about all parts of this sword now. The blade has a core twist, that too is hard to see in the photo's. The shirmani grip scales are in excellent condition, the silver inlay of the blade is an over lapping triangular punch most common on ottoman empire pieces. Have just not come across a scabbard with this quality that wasn't silver before. The gold wash is very thick, more the sheen of what you would see with gold over copper. But its definitely not upper or silver comprising the scabbard. Attached Images

23rd September 2016, 06:20 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Jerseyman has a good point - we need pictures of the whole piece please.....

23rd September 2016, 01:59 PM	#13
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Entire Sword Photo & Writing Entire sword and better photo of picture. Attached Images Last edited by rand; 23rd September 2016 at 02:28 PM.

23rd September 2016, 02:03 PM	#14
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Improved writing photo Writing on blade. Attached Images Last edited by rand; 23rd September 2016 at 02:25 PM. Reason: Unable to load photo

24th September 2016, 11:41 AM	#15
ilias Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: GREECE Posts: 73	Very nice piece rand. What makes you think is not silver? Have you tried to clean it? I will agree with Battara. The patina looks like more for a silver one. This kind of work was done only at quality pieces and of course at silver ones. My guess is that it is silver.

24th September 2016, 01:56 PM	#16
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Scabbard Hi Ilias, At first I thought it was silver because of the high quality repousse. But then I tried to clean a small section that did not have gold wash and it definitely does not clean as coin grade silver does. Used flintz silver cleaner, the metal remained black in color and did not polish. In the photo's you can see a green color accumulation in spots, but you can see that wth silver too. The gold wash is thicker on this metal the gold wash on silver, it is also a darker gold color too. This is the first scabbard I have handled like this that is not silver.

24th September 2016, 04:16 PM	#17
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	someone told me once that many yats had pewter fittings, maybe yours are gilded pewter? pewter is mostly tin (92%-ish) with a small amt. of copper and antimony to harden it. tin is the 4th most precious metal after platinum,gold,silver (then tin). older pewter may have some lead in there too, modern pewter does not. pewter darkens it's grey colour as it ages.

25th September 2016, 12:10 AM	#18
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Am familiar with pewter which is a different color, hardness and has a different affinity for adhering to gold. This is a hard, silver colored metal, that can oxidize black and also form a green corrosion. You are right that pewter is used on islamic swords, daggers at times. You can see some pewter just under the bolsa on this yataghan, the scabbard is not pewter. Thanks,

25th September 2016, 03:09 PM	#19
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Can anyone translate the writing on blade? Thanks,

25th September 2016, 07:32 PM	#20
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Rand, I have also worked on low silver content and that black patina can be crazy to get off unless you have jeweler's polishing equipment (which I have). Also even sterling silver after a time will have a green patina in places.

25th September 2016, 09:45 PM	#21
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Battara, There is always a chance it could be low grade silver, but I have serious doubt about that. Have had many yataghans with silver scabbards, chapes and throats, but never came across one such as this. If you have a test to suggest let me know.