Bowie knives

Titus Pullo · 12th February 2006, 07:48 AM

Does anybody here collects Bowie knives? I've always been a big fan of the American classic weapons. Does the design have any specific origin that influence the development of it, or did Jim Bowie came up with the design seperately?

Rich · 12th February 2006, 11:51 AM

I've been collecting bowies (among other sharp pointy things) for
about 40 years. The "original" was basically a large butcher knife which
bears little resemblence to what people today think of as a bowie knife.
Certainly not an original design. I've a French hunting knife from circa
1790 that anyone would call a "bowie knife".

Rich

Spunjer · 12th February 2006, 02:49 PM

rich,

are you familiar with this type of knife (name, what era, etc.)? do you know what it's called?

Rich · 12th February 2006, 06:22 PM

You're not going to like my reply :-( but I believe this is a
total fake. It is a rework IMHO of a 1950-60's carving knife made
in India. I've seen dozens and dozens of knives exactly like this
with carved sheaths and handles and plainly marked made in India
or just India.

Rich

ariel · 12th February 2006, 07:02 PM

I do not think it is a "fake".
True, the construction looks just like these awful souvenir knives from India. However, the blade is very different and the quality of the woodwork and the bronze (brass? Always confuse them....) is quite good. The handle looks like Punal. I think somebody in the Philippines took the idea and reworked it from scratch.
The wood may be revealing.

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2006, 07:12 PM

Titus,
I have always considered the 'Bowie' knife to be about the closest thing to a real American 'ethnographic edged weapon' ! As noted by Rich, the term itself became colloquial for many forms of heavy bladed knives with clipped point by the mid 19th century, thus considered 'weapons' rather than simply 'hunting knives'. Ironically, probably the most prominant producers that capitalized on the use of the term 'Bowie knife' were those by Sheffield makers, in England! Later of course, German commercialism entered the field as well.

It would be difficult to really assert the true origins of the Bowie knife, as there is more than considerable folklore and speculation that has grown over the years. For those seriously interested, I think the best resouce on these knives and comprehensively all associated forms of these knives would be,
"The Bowie Knife' by Norm Flayderman (2004, ISBN 1-931464-12-X).
This book is magnificent! and well researched by one of the most well known and respected authorities on Americana. Fantastic book with amazingly photographed examples throughout.

Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2006, 07:15 PM

Just noticed the excellent call by Ariel on the knife with U.S.A. on the scabbard!!! Nicely done Ariel, I very much agree that it is a punal!!!
Actually a pretty nice looking knife

Jim

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

I've been collecting bowies (among other sharp pointy things) for
about 40 years. The "original" was basically a large butcher knife which
bears little resemblence to what people today think of as a bowie knife.
Certainly not an original design. I've a French hunting knife from circa
1790 that anyone would call a "bowie knife".

Rich

I very much agree Rich. Actually the Bowie brothers, James and Rezin, were quite familiar with European style knife fighting, as they had considerable contact with this in thier dealings in Louisiana in somewhat controversial 'business'. The actual form of the knife is believed to have derived most likely from the 'Meditteranean' forms of knife carried by men from both France and especially Spain. The notching on the back of the blade suggests probably more Spanish influence however. Regardless, the deadly knife combat of the Spaniards as well as the French is well known.

Surprisingly the first use of the term 'Bowie' knife to describe a specific form was in a news item in 1835 (Flayderman, op.cit. p.22), actually the year before James Bowie achieved his immortal fame at the Alamo along with those other courageous defenders who died there.

Best regards,
Jim

Rich · 12th February 2006, 09:59 PM

Punal, maybe; althought I still think reworked India.
Fake? yes, in any case if it was sold or represented as an
old American "bowie" knife.

Rich

not2sharp · 13th February 2006, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Punal, maybe; althought I still think reworked India.
Fake? yes, in any case if it was sold or represented as an
old American "bowie" knife.

Rich

I doubt that it is a fake or a reworked peice; nor, is it a bowie. This is probably a souvenir knife that was likely made in theater during WWII.

n2s

Lew · 13th February 2006, 01:15 PM

Hi Guys

I think this is a reworked older Indian knife circa WW2. The blade seems to be made from very thin stock where as older bowie knives where no less than 3/16" thick at the spine. Here is a pic of a 1890s or so bowie made in India which I believe these later knives were copied from.

Lew

Spunjer · 13th February 2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

You're not going to like my reply :-( but I believe this is a
total fake. It is a rework IMHO of a 1950-60's carving knife made
in India. I've seen dozens and dozens of knives exactly like this
with carved sheaths and handles and plainly marked made in India
or just India.

it's ok rich, lol. this specific knife was sold on ebay awhile back (not to me) and the only reason i saved the picture was because the seller said it was a civil war knife, and the locking mechanism intrigues me. never saw anything like it. i was gonna post it awhile back and see if anyone recognizes it. i'm glad i procastinated...

Rich · 13th February 2006, 02:25 PM

Beautiful Arnacellum hunter. These are really nice, well made knives (I've two
of them; one exactly like this). While not "bowies" in the classical sense;
ie, too late and wrong countries; still really finely made knives. Flayderman
(if I recall) attributes to being made for English in India circa mid - late 1800's;
brought back to England and then to US circa turn 20th C. Quality certainly
nothing like the carved sheath India carving knives I was referring too.

Rich S

Justin · 13th February 2006, 03:10 PM

Bowies are indeed what I would call an American Ethnic knife ,however at the same time they were being carried there were all kinds of dirks and folding knives that were also in use,including my favorite and the most definate American knife of all the 'push dagger'.I think we tend to avoid these things here because many of them were mass produced both here and in Europe but that didnt keep them from being extremely popular weapons and tools among civilians and military.

Jim bowie supposedly had somewhere around 14 different knives that he carried ,he loved knives and I would be willing to bet that he owned many more than the 14,hard to tell what any of them looked like .There were bowies for hunting and fighting as previously mentioned but as I understand it size was the difference. I have two Sheffield made bowies one is probably M-L 19th cent the other L 19th-E 20th at about 10 inches long overall they were supposed to be for hunting.

He didnt hesitate to use them either ,Ive read about several duels he was in using his knives.He wasnt a good person to challenge since he usually liked to make up odd and risky terms.There was one incident where he and another gentleman sat face to face straddling a log,their seconds nailed their pants down to the log and when the signal was given they went at each other with their knives,needless to say he won.In another ordeal he ended up being shot several times,cut and had a sword cane blade snap off while still stuck in his chest,and lived.-'Gentleman Swords and Pistols' a very good book for anyone interested in dueling in the old South.

The knife in question above does look a little different from the Indian carving sets but that brass clasp is something that I have seen on them before ,it may be similar to a gunong but I think it is from India.

Lew · 13th February 2006, 03:45 PM

Gentleman

From what I have read the original bowie knife was a hunting knife. It was a simple large straight back single edge blade. The bowie knife we see today was said to be designed for Jim Bowie or Rezin Bowie by a local maker named Snowden there was also another maker named Jesse Clifft which was said to have made the straight back style blade. Here is a page from Jim Batons book that I picked up about 12 years ago it shows the two styles mentioned above.

Lew

Rich · 18th February 2006, 11:53 AM

Here's one of those Made in India knives I mentioned (copied the
pics off ebay). Sand off the carving, stain the wood, age the brass
and blade and doesn't it look like the one that started this thread?

Rich

RobT · 19th February 2006, 04:56 PM

Hi All,
The fit and finish on the knife that Spunjer posted looks far superior to the generally encountered Indian blades of that type. Could it be that those types of knives are also made in better quality for local consumption? I can't figure out how the USA on the sheath fits with that theory though (unless it was a later attempt to "enhance the value" of the piece). Even if that's the case, the carving on the cartouche is very well done and it looks (from the photo anyway) to be original to the sheath. One thing that argues against fakery is the fact that the "A" lacks a period (presumably something a faker would be unlikely to overlook). But that's not why I'm writing. Could you bowie guys take a look at Tim Simmons Indonesian knife and shield thread? Your opinions on the knife would be invaluable.
Sincerely,
RobT

Titus Pullo · 20th February 2006, 12:08 AM

Thanks for posting the pictures and info guys! I'd appreciate it!

12th February 2006, 07:48 AM	#1
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Bowie knives Does anybody here collects Bowie knives? I've always been a big fan of the American classic weapons. Does the design have any specific origin that influence the development of it, or did Jim Bowie came up with the design seperately?

12th February 2006, 02:49 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	rich, are you familiar with this type of knife (name, what era, etc.)? do you know what it's called? Attached Images

13th February 2006, 01:15 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Guys I think this is a reworked older Indian knife circa WW2. The blade seems to be made from very thin stock where as older bowie knives where no less than 3/16" thick at the spine. Here is a pic of a 1890s or so bowie made in India which I believe these later knives were copied from. Lew Attached Images

13th February 2006, 03:45 PM	#15
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Gentleman From what I have read the original bowie knife was a hunting knife. It was a simple large straight back single edge blade. The bowie knife we see today was said to be designed for Jim Bowie or Rezin Bowie by a local maker named Snowden there was also another maker named Jesse Clifft which was said to have made the straight back style blade. Here is a page from Jim Batons book that I picked up about 12 years ago it shows the two styles mentioned above. Lew Attached Images

18th February 2006, 11:53 AM	#16
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Here's one of those Made in India knives I mentioned (copied the pics off ebay). Sand off the carving, stain the wood, age the brass and blade and doesn't it look like the one that started this thread? Rich Attached Images

12th February 2006, 11:51 AM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I've been collecting bowies (among other sharp pointy things) for about 40 years. The "original" was basically a large butcher knife which bears little resemblence to what people today think of as a bowie knife. Certainly not an original design. I've a French hunting knife from circa 1790 that anyone would call a "bowie knife". Rich

12th February 2006, 06:22 PM	#4
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	You're not going to like my reply :-( but I believe this is a total fake. It is a rework IMHO of a 1950-60's carving knife made in India. I've seen dozens and dozens of knives exactly like this with carved sheaths and handles and plainly marked made in India or just India. Rich

12th February 2006, 07:02 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not think it is a "fake". True, the construction looks just like these awful souvenir knives from India. However, the blade is very different and the quality of the woodwork and the bronze (brass? Always confuse them....) is quite good. The handle looks like Punal. I think somebody in the Philippines took the idea and reworked it from scratch. The wood may be revealing.

12th February 2006, 07:12 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Titus, I have always considered the 'Bowie' knife to be about the closest thing to a real American 'ethnographic edged weapon' ! As noted by Rich, the term itself became colloquial for many forms of heavy bladed knives with clipped point by the mid 19th century, thus considered 'weapons' rather than simply 'hunting knives'. Ironically, probably the most prominant producers that capitalized on the use of the term 'Bowie knife' were those by Sheffield makers, in England! Later of course, German commercialism entered the field as well. It would be difficult to really assert the true origins of the Bowie knife, as there is more than considerable folklore and speculation that has grown over the years. For those seriously interested, I think the best resouce on these knives and comprehensively all associated forms of these knives would be, "The Bowie Knife' by Norm Flayderman (2004, ISBN 1-931464-12-X). This book is magnificent! and well researched by one of the most well known and respected authorities on Americana. Fantastic book with amazingly photographed examples throughout. Best regards, Jim

12th February 2006, 07:15 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Just noticed the excellent call by Ariel on the knife with U.S.A. on the scabbard!!! Nicely done Ariel, I very much agree that it is a punal!!! Actually a pretty nice looking knife Jim

12th February 2006, 09:59 PM	#9
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Punal, maybe; althought I still think reworked India. Fake? yes, in any case if it was sold or represented as an old American "bowie" knife. Rich

13th February 2006, 02:25 PM	#13
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Beautiful Arnacellum hunter. These are really nice, well made knives (I've two of them; one exactly like this). While not "bowies" in the classical sense; ie, too late and wrong countries; still really finely made knives. Flayderman (if I recall) attributes to being made for English in India circa mid - late 1800's; brought back to England and then to US circa turn 20th C. Quality certainly nothing like the carved sheath India carving knives I was referring too. Rich S

13th February 2006, 03:10 PM	#14
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Bowies are indeed what I would call an American Ethnic knife ,however at the same time they were being carried there were all kinds of dirks and folding knives that were also in use,including my favorite and the most definate American knife of all the 'push dagger'.I think we tend to avoid these things here because many of them were mass produced both here and in Europe but that didnt keep them from being extremely popular weapons and tools among civilians and military. Jim bowie supposedly had somewhere around 14 different knives that he carried ,he loved knives and I would be willing to bet that he owned many more than the 14,hard to tell what any of them looked like .There were bowies for hunting and fighting as previously mentioned but as I understand it size was the difference. I have two Sheffield made bowies one is probably M-L 19th cent the other L 19th-E 20th at about 10 inches long overall they were supposed to be for hunting. He didnt hesitate to use them either ,Ive read about several duels he was in using his knives.He wasnt a good person to challenge since he usually liked to make up odd and risky terms.There was one incident where he and another gentleman sat face to face straddling a log,their seconds nailed their pants down to the log and when the signal was given they went at each other with their knives,needless to say he won.In another ordeal he ended up being shot several times,cut and had a sword cane blade snap off while still stuck in his chest,and lived.-'Gentleman Swords and Pistols' a very good book for anyone interested in dueling in the old South. The knife in question above does look a little different from the Indian carving sets but that brass clasp is something that I have seen on them before ,it may be similar to a gunong but I think it is from India.

19th February 2006, 04:56 PM	#17
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Help wanted Hi All, The fit and finish on the knife that Spunjer posted looks far superior to the generally encountered Indian blades of that type. Could it be that those types of knives are also made in better quality for local consumption? I can't figure out how the USA on the sheath fits with that theory though (unless it was a later attempt to "enhance the value" of the piece). Even if that's the case, the carving on the cartouche is very well done and it looks (from the photo anyway) to be original to the sheath. One thing that argues against fakery is the fact that the "A" lacks a period (presumably something a faker would be unlikely to overlook). But that's not why I'm writing. Could you bowie guys take a look at Tim Simmons Indonesian knife and shield thread? Your opinions on the knife would be invaluable. Sincerely, RobT

20th February 2006, 12:08 AM	#18
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Thanks for posting the pictures and info guys! I'd appreciate it!