18th century hanger with possible naval connections

M ELEY · 10th August 2016, 09:32 AM

Here is a well documented French privateer's sword with a very similar hilt-

Here is the site-
http://swordscollection.blogspot.com...g-cutlass.html

M ELEY · 10th August 2016, 09:37 AM

Just to show the Germanic hilts and their earlier patterns to the French m1767, here is a sword with similar grip from Dmitri's page (Sailor in Saddle).

The second pic is also from Dmitri's page, showing a French marine sword with the acutely angled knuckle bow I mentioned. I think the capstan and style helps date this piece to mid/late 18th.

The last pic is the m1767 French grenadiere sword, as used by infantry and popular with sailors of the period.

M ELEY · 10th August 2016, 10:56 AM

So, my general thoughts are that it is not British. The Brits didn't like brass hilts and totally rejected the prevalent brass briquette pattern of the next century. American? Could be. They had enough privateering going on, certainly adopted German-made pieces and could have used such markings. The Americans had adopted the m1791 Dutch marine sabal after all. Without provenance, it is just a possibility...

As much as I like the idea of a French origin, I find it hard to believe that a merchantman would need another pattern of sword other than their own. I can't find any French swords with the abbreviation for number listed as 'No.' Likewise, their word for 'rack' is grille.

Could this just be a German hanger for infantry use? Short blade? No elaborate hilt/guard? No long markings to regiment or government proofs? I don't believe this, plus their word for rack doesn't start with an 'R'. I'd bet export no matter what.

My conclusion- 18thc. hanger, German made for export, simple markings and style indicating possibly naval, Danish? Dutch? American?

Now, I will await my theories and research to be besmirched by those more enlightened!

corrado26 · 10th August 2016, 02:22 PM

"R.X.2 N°45" may be a European troop marking: Regiment N°10, 2nd. batallion, sabre n°45.
corrado26

Jim McDougall · 10th August 2016, 06:39 PM

As always, fascinating items and well detailed research with reasoned approach to deductions Mark! I like your style.

Without excavation for notes here in the bookmobile yet, it does seem I have seen number combinations like this but uncertain on how they were disposed on hilts.
What comes to mind is Mexican units in some of their designations which of course might have evolved through Spanish military unit structures.
In any case an excellent an interesting hanger example.

As we know, virtually any hanger or light sword form might have been used in maritime context, particularly in private or merchant vessels. Piracy in all its forms has existed certainly since vessels took to sea, and still of course exists. The need for defensive armaments and weapons in the vulnerability of these vessels naturally compelled those aboard to secure them from any sources in private circumstances.

CutlassCollector · 10th August 2016, 09:13 PM

Hi Mark, interesting article and link, and good to see some naval items again.

You sometimes see Brit cutlasses with a letter id for a location such as QD - quarterdeck, FC - forecastle etc, followed by a number but I have not seen a rack identified by number before.
That's not to say they don't exist of course.
I have a feeling though that corrado26 may be on the right track as 45 cutlasses in one rack would not be common unless possibly on the largest naval warships.

Regards, CC

Jim McDougall · 10th August 2016, 09:58 PM

Hi Mark,
So far digging into notes. This is obviously a hanger or other ranks sword of the briquette category (i.e. solid cast brass hilts) which expands to the various auxiliary and support units such as 'pioneers, sappers' etc.

One thing I found is that Mexican military categorization by units etc. is often reflected on weaponry with unusual variations of letters, dots or periods, hyper script and highly abbreviated designations.

For example, a British M1821 sabre found at battlefield at San Jacinto Texas from the 'Alamo' period I was researching for a museum had the inscription
R.P.D. Jo Ca No.19 on the back of the hilt
This indicated apparently Regimente Permanente Delores , Primero (first company, weapon number 19).
The Delores regiment was made permanent in 1833 (Alamo if course 1836).

There were apparently varying configurations of numbers and letters on various locations on the sword overall, indicating probably a kind of resume' of issuance.

In other notes I found that R, also represents 'zapado' (zapadors or sappers), while R L the letter R with hyper letter L smaller and elevated meant 'Cuerpo de Ingenieres ( Real Corps of Engineers).

With numbers like 7 for example with small zero up and left of letter stood for 7th (the small o =th)

With the numerous French weapons, and so influenced in the Mexican military it seems feasible this is a munitions level hanger which might have been produced based on their arms and issued into the Mexican military sometime 1850s (?).

Despite these possibilities, remember that Mexico had a navy of sorts which often included patrol vessels to guard their ever threatened coastal regions, not to mention piratical circumstances . I have long had a sword of U.S. M1840 type cavalry hilt which has a shorter heavy blade which corresponds to espada anchas with these kind of heavy blades, and I have seen termed as cutlasses. The hilts on these were more aligned with those of other weapons to the south in Mexico, and always seemed to indeed possibly have found use in Mexican maritime circumstances, which were often more irregularly operated.
The 'cutlass' with military (M1840 type) hilt does have mkgs of Republic of Mexico, but no apparent unit mkgs. so I do know its Mexican. Sorry I don't have photos of it!

10th August 2016, 09:32 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Here is a well documented French privateer's sword with a very similar hilt- Here is the site- http://swordscollection.blogspot.com...g-cutlass.html Attached Images

10th August 2016, 09:37 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Just to show the Germanic hilts and their earlier patterns to the French m1767, here is a sword with similar grip from Dmitri's page (Sailor in Saddle). The second pic is also from Dmitri's page, showing a French marine sword with the acutely angled knuckle bow I mentioned. I think the capstan and style helps date this piece to mid/late 18th. The last pic is the m1767 French grenadiere sword, as used by infantry and popular with sailors of the period. Attached Images

10th August 2016, 10:56 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	So, my general thoughts are that it is not British. The Brits didn't like brass hilts and totally rejected the prevalent brass briquette pattern of the next century. American? Could be. They had enough privateering going on, certainly adopted German-made pieces and could have used such markings. The Americans had adopted the m1791 Dutch marine sabal after all. Without provenance, it is just a possibility... As much as I like the idea of a French origin, I find it hard to believe that a merchantman would need another pattern of sword other than their own. I can't find any French swords with the abbreviation for number listed as 'No.' Likewise, their word for 'rack' is grille. Could this just be a German hanger for infantry use? Short blade? No elaborate hilt/guard? No long markings to regiment or government proofs? I don't believe this, plus their word for rack doesn't start with an 'R'. I'd bet export no matter what. My conclusion- 18thc. hanger, German made for export, simple markings and style indicating possibly naval, Danish? Dutch? American? Now, I will await my theories and research to be besmirched by those more enlightened!

10th August 2016, 02:22 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	"R.X.2 N°45" may be a European troop marking: Regiment N°10, 2nd. batallion, sabre n°45. corrado26

10th August 2016, 06:39 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	As always, fascinating items and well detailed research with reasoned approach to deductions Mark! I like your style. Without excavation for notes here in the bookmobile yet, it does seem I have seen number combinations like this but uncertain on how they were disposed on hilts. What comes to mind is Mexican units in some of their designations which of course might have evolved through Spanish military unit structures. In any case an excellent an interesting hanger example. As we know, virtually any hanger or light sword form might have been used in maritime context, particularly in private or merchant vessels. Piracy in all its forms has existed certainly since vessels took to sea, and still of course exists. The need for defensive armaments and weapons in the vulnerability of these vessels naturally compelled those aboard to secure them from any sources in private circumstances.

10th August 2016, 09:13 PM	#6
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Hi Mark, interesting article and link, and good to see some naval items again. You sometimes see Brit cutlasses with a letter id for a location such as QD - quarterdeck, FC - forecastle etc, followed by a number but I have not seen a rack identified by number before. That's not to say they don't exist of course. I have a feeling though that corrado26 may be on the right track as 45 cutlasses in one rack would not be common unless possibly on the largest naval warships. Regards, CC

10th August 2016, 09:58 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mark, So far digging into notes. This is obviously a hanger or other ranks sword of the briquette category (i.e. solid cast brass hilts) which expands to the various auxiliary and support units such as 'pioneers, sappers' etc. One thing I found is that Mexican military categorization by units etc. is often reflected on weaponry with unusual variations of letters, dots or periods, hyper script and highly abbreviated designations. For example, a British M1821 sabre found at battlefield at San Jacinto Texas from the 'Alamo' period I was researching for a museum had the inscription R.P.D. Jo Ca No.19 on the back of the hilt This indicated apparently Regimente Permanente Delores , Primero (first company, weapon number 19). The Delores regiment was made permanent in 1833 (Alamo if course 1836). There were apparently varying configurations of numbers and letters on various locations on the sword overall, indicating probably a kind of resume' of issuance. In other notes I found that R, also represents 'zapado' (zapadors or sappers), while R L the letter R with hyper letter L smaller and elevated meant 'Cuerpo de Ingenieres ( Real Corps of Engineers). With numbers like 7 for example with small zero up and left of letter stood for 7th (the small o =th) With the numerous French weapons, and so influenced in the Mexican military it seems feasible this is a munitions level hanger which might have been produced based on their arms and issued into the Mexican military sometime 1850s (?). Despite these possibilities, remember that Mexico had a navy of sorts which often included patrol vessels to guard their ever threatened coastal regions, not to mention piratical circumstances . I have long had a sword of U.S. M1840 type cavalry hilt which has a shorter heavy blade which corresponds to espada anchas with these kind of heavy blades, and I have seen termed as cutlasses. The hilts on these were more aligned with those of other weapons to the south in Mexico, and always seemed to indeed possibly have found use in Mexican maritime circumstances, which were often more irregularly operated. The 'cutlass' with military (M1840 type) hilt does have mkgs of Republic of Mexico, but no apparent unit mkgs. so I do know its Mexican. Sorry I don't have photos of it!