katar your opinion

[galvano]

here a katar and pouluar,its blade is in wootz.
I would like your opinion on is age.
Thank you

[Flavio]

Hello galvano, a very beautiful piece, even if i know nothing about indian weapons, but i like it very much !!

[Lew]

Hi galvano

Very nice large katar you have there. It is made of Indian wootz and is in very good condition.

Lew

[manicdj]

Hi GALVANO

I like what I see, I don,t Know much about it, so I agree with the above.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

This KATTAR (or JAMADHAR as preffered by some) ,, the tooth of the Death God" is of a most classical form, the Rajput type. Is is a plain but functional, an honest battle ready piece (piercing was the main purpose of this dagger, to open or split chainmail and organs) with minimal traces of decoration, no koftgari. The types with bulbous crossbars are normally associated with the Rajasthan and Jaipur and most surviving examples from the museums are from 18th century but yours is so clean I hardly believe it to be that old. Many kattars have European blades, IMHO yours is not one of them, which makes it even a step further more authentic. The hardships of determining the age on Oriental and Hindu especially have long been subjects of vivid debate and many factors enter in equation. Now you have to consider that variations on Indian weaponry have changed very little in five hundred years from the times of Babur, or even more. Also a factor to consider is patina but weather in India is capricious and it could vary from dry desert climate to wet tropical and it makes it hard to just associate the ruggedness produced on a blade compared to a European four season climate for instance.
When you get a chance please post a close-up of any decorations or marks.
Best regards,
Radu

Some bibliography:
Indian arms and armour vol. II - Dr. G.N. PANT (thank you Mare Rosu)
Arms and Armour - traditional weapons of India - E. Paul JAIWANT
Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour - Lord Eggerton of Tatton
And others...

[galvano]

a detail of the katar.
There is no other decoration.
The blade is clean because I cleaned it.
I made a etching to see the pattern of the wootz
Thank you for the bibliography,I have some books.
Many thanks Radu
Galvano

[Jim McDougall]

The katar has indeed promoted considerable debate, in particular concerning its effectiveness in piercing mail, but also in the evolution of the weapon itself. While it is clearly established that this form of dagger existed quite early, possibly even 15th century, that and the actual regions of its origin remain inconclusive. Despite the fact that certain references, notably the book by G.N.Pant, claim that the term jemadhar rather than katar, refer to this distinct weapon, this revision is based primarily on 19th century etymology study and also remains inconclusive. The nomenclature describing edged weapons in India involves considerable complexity, with semantics and misinterpretation of general terms being applied to specific weapons being a key problem.

It would seem that it is quite common to assume 18th century date as well as the region of Rajasthan to many Indian tulwars and katars, and in many cases that may be accurate until proven otherwise. This region has been one of the most prolific in producing these weapons and in fact is still producing today. The key factors in identifying Indian weapons in my opinion, are primarily the form and the style of the components, including decorative motif. Indian weapons often inherently carry important symbolism that often provide clues to assist in identification.
Patination may offer a degree of assistance in discovering the age of a weapon in certain cases, but much of this will depend on whether it has been static for a long period in collection, armoury, storage etc. The effects of nature typically have more considered effect on excavated items, which are generally identified with the provenance in which they are found.

The examples of katar with European blades seem to be primarily those from Mahratta regions and evolved from latter 16th century with cutdown European blades that were becoming predominant then in India with Portuguese presence ("Hindu Arms and Ritual, R.Elgood, p.145). Use of these blades in both katars and patas prevailed through the 17th century and probably later.

Concerning the use of the katar, while many examples from the northern regions carry blades reinforced for thrusting, and suggesting mail piercing purpose, it appears that they were also very effective for slashing, and this was well known for both pata and katar.The presence of mail ,established by the Persian influences in Mughal regions to the north, may suggest the regional provenance of the reinforced blades.

Elements of this katar suggest that it is probably 19th century, possibly latter and as noted very well may be from Rajasthan regions, while it would be difficult to assign distinct Rajput associations. There seems to be a noticeable absence of decoration, although the stylized floral inscription at the forte seems to suggest vestigially the langets on the traditionally mounted earlier examples. The polyhedron type bulbs on the crossbars seem to reflect a latter period also, although there are admittedly many variations, mostly varying degrees of spheres as seen on earlier forms.

The triangular geometric motif in the hilt may also reflect stylized symbolism suggesting the numeric three, the Tantric trikona, obviously speculation, but plausible.

The paluoar seems to be an example consistant with these distinct sabres of Afghanistan regions from latter 18th century well into the 19th. It is interesting to note the characteristic drooping quillons, which are believed to allude to the dragonheads of earlier Timurid material culture, signifying that warrior ancestry. It seems reasonable to presume this to be likely of mid 19th century and possibly earlier, as these were not continuously produced beyond that period as far as I know. Afghanistan in this period after its wars with Great Britain was becoming more Anglicized in its military, adopting more western uniforms and weaponry.

Very nice representative examples of two classic weapon forms!

Best regards,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jim – nice to see you back at full speed.
You write that the katar maybe goes back to the 15th century, this is not entirely true, as good old Ibn Batutta described how someone he was travelling with, was killed with a katar, and that was around 1332. The incident, which took place at the west coast of India, gives reason to believe that the katar could be even older.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens,
Thank you very much!!! It feels good to get going again!!
It has been especially inspiring to see the also awakening interest in Indian weapons, which in so many cases have remained considerably underresearched. I think one of the greatest things to have happened in the study of Indian arms in recent times has been the publication by Robert Elgood of his book "Hindu Arms and Ritual", which I continue to be more and more amazed with each time I refer to it. I have always greatly admired his great scholarship and writing, and this book is a treasure chest of information! It seems there is always some bit of key information that turns out to be an important clue in varied other research I am working on even concerning weapons from many other cultural spheres.

I'm glad you mentioned the note on Ibn Battuta, which I had not thought of. This further emphasizes the uncertainty in the period in which these distinctive transversely held daggers originated, and clearly in what regions they may have developed. It would be most interesting to discover a weapon form with such dynamics that may have served as a prototype for these.

These mysteries are what makes Indian weapons so fascinating, and cause us to search deeper into the many untapped resources such as translations of early narrative material as well as closely examining early iconography.

All the best,
Jim