guardless nimcha

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

As a general querry there seems to be a bell ringing on sword number 1009 on the Butin Chart ...

I enlarged it but is there a larger and clearer image of this chart, also is there a discription page which matches the numbers on the chart?

[ariel]

Bravo Ibrahiim!


I never had an inkling of a thought that Somali Billao and the South-Aravian Sayf may have common roots.

These are exactly the minutiae that allow us to make important connections!

Good job!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Bravo Ibrahiim!


I never had an inkling of a thought that Somali Billao and the South-Arabian Sayf may have common roots.

These are exactly the minutiae that allow us to make important connections!

Good job!

Salaams Ariel ..Thank you !! They may well be related. It is interesting that the form of hilt is also reflected in Saudia style often with a completely metal plated hilt..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I enlarged it but is there a larger and clearer image of this chart, also is there a discription page which matches the numbers on the chart?

Salaams estcrh, Thanks that's a great improvement !! Actually I haven't seen a descriptive chart but since they are numbered I suppose there is one... Anyone got the chart please??

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I enlarged it but is there a larger and clearer image of this chart, also is there a discription page which matches the numbers on the chart?

You will find a digitized copy of Buttin's catalogue here http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6524676d
Plates I-XXXII at the end, the description for #1009 is on page 262.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ...and as a continuation of the Baluch clue... I Quote"

The East African Baloch.

In 1821, the Sultan and Imam of Oman, Seyyid Said bin Sultan Al Busaidi, hired an Iranian fleet to invade the islands and ports of East Africa. The Iranian fleet leased by the Sultan of Oman consisted mostly of Baluchi and Sindhi/Cutchi mercenaries, with a few Arab, Persian, and Pathan officers from India. Almost all of these, after their families had arrived from Iran and India, settled in the coastal towns in or around the forts and the newly built camps (e.g., Saa-teeni north of Zanzibar City and Fort Jesus in Mombasa – the largest fortification in East Africa), with the Baluchi cavalry settling in Zanzibar City at the site of the present Haile Selassie School."Unquote. and recommend the article from which this came at

http://www.chapatimystery.com/archiv...an_baloch.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams ...and as a continuation of the Baluch clue... I Quote"

The East African Baloch.

In 1821, the Sultan and Imam of Oman, Seyyid Said bin Sultan Al Busaidi, hired an Iranian fleet to invade the islands and ports of East Africa. The Iranian fleet leased by the Sultan of Oman consisted mostly of Baluchi and Sindhi/Cutchi mercenaries, with a few Arab, Persian, and Pathan officers from India. Almost all of these, after their families had arrived from Iran and India, settled in the coastal towns in or around the forts and the newly built camps (e.g., Saa-teeni north of Zanzibar City and Fort Jesus in Mombasa – the largest fortification in East Africa), with the Baluchi cavalry settling in Zanzibar City at the site of the present Haile Selassie School."Unquote. and recommend the article from which this came at

http://www.chapatimystery.com/archiv...an_baloch.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Very interesting historical information.

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahim, this is some most intriguing perspective on the seemingly most misunderstood term 'nimcha', which has long been included in the assembled glossary of classifying terms among arms collectors.
While Robert Elgood rightly noted the often misapplied use of the term in describing the sabres better described as Maghrebi sa'if (often Algerian also) as these typically had ful size blades, not 'half' or small/short as implied.

This is interesting investigative work in tracing the probable etymology of the term 'nim' and the variously interpreted suffix 'cha', in the use of this term collectively in describing many types of Arab sabres in this group.

It seems quite likely for the diffusion of the Baluch/ Iranian version of the word into Arab parlance and into a vernacular description used more collectively as you suggest.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahim, this is some most intriguing perspective on the seemingly most misunderstood term 'nimcha', which has long been included in the assembled glossary of classifying terms among arms collectors.
While Robert Elgood rightly noted the often misapplied use of the term in describing the sabres better described as Maghrebi sa'if (often Algerian also) as these typically had ful size blades, not 'half' or small/short as implied.

This is interesting investigative work in tracing the probable etymology of the term 'nim' and the variously interpreted suffix 'cha', in the use of this term collectively in describing many types of Arab sabres in this group.

It seems quite likely for the diffusion of the Baluch/ Iranian version of the word into Arab parlance and into a vernacular description used more collectively as you suggest.

Salaams Jim, What the map does not show is the other areas that Baluch mercenaries flowed into ... From our perspective there are two important omissions ...One is the Zanj where they were called into service after 1830 by Said the Great against Fort Jesus and the Portuguese enemy at the time. This was something of a pushover as it was disease that weakened the Portuguese but I earmark this as part of the conundrum addressed in the next paragraph. To the North is the region that is part of Afghanistan. To the West Persian controlled Baluchistan... The entire area of what we call Baluchistan may be thought of as more straddling these countries in an amorphous blob...but administered and owned by the countries of which they are painted upon. The other area was The Punjab South and East of Baluchistan. Said the Great favoured these tough tribal fighters and many remained in place until today as well as in Oman. The Sultan continues to recruit from Baluchistan in the Pakistani controlled region of Mekran. (Oman owned Gwadur port until 1950). ..though among those recruits it was often found soldiers from other areas were in the group. In the Zanj they were often found in the 19thC inland working with Tipu Tib and at Zanzibar. They also worked with Burton on his journeys to and from the African interior.

A couple of things struck me as interesting while I was thinking this through...The sword Nimcha as we know it can not have developed from scratch in Zanzibar waters... it must have come from North Africa either by desert or Sea or both. The first Europeans into the Indian Ocean were the Portuguese.

After the Portuguese left Bahrain, Musandam, Muscat(1650) and Zanzibar (1652) there was still a lot of activity and fighting as they struggled to hold parts of the Zanj etc... Said the Great attacked them at Fort Jesus in 1831? with his Mercenaries from Baluchistan... after that there was a general retreat and reformation built around Mozambique ...but insofar as the Zanj etc they were more or less absent. My question is this...

Was it not the Portuguese who brought the weapon from North Africa... and was it not also they who took the name Nimcha back to North African shores ...Nimcha..from the Baluch on the Zanj as their (the Portuguese) possessions in the Indian Ocean disintegrated ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ...To visualize how far the Nimcha spreads ...The Type Zanzibari (I suggest) here is something of a brain teaser... For this I illustrate the Comores situation... an island grouping not dissimilar to Zanzibar ...another slavery and spice islands grouping closer to Madagascar and seized by the French in the late 18oos...on research you will discover the Algerian connection in the Indian Ocean which will give you hours of fascinating study.

Not least among the conundrum encountered will be ..Was the Nimcha the result of Spanish, Portuguese, English, French sea going trade/war and did it enter the Indian Ocean around the Cape of Good Hope or via the Spanish via Accupulco and the Philipines or was this via an overland route ...Spanish Sahara perhaps or by ship down the Red Sea?...For certain it didn't just happen in Zanzibar...Someone brought the concept although it may have Morphed..What then was the influence of the Baluch mercenaries employed by Said the Great in Zanzibar and on the Zanj? To add a little spice to the problem we are dealing with two things...The actual weapon and the peculiar name... and how did it backwash to mean swords from here and from the North African coast?

Please also observe the formal almost exact engineering of a sword with quite marked disciplined design which to my eye is almost military in style and appears similar to Afghan blades. Hyderabad and Hadramaut seem invisibly linked with Yemeni(from Hadramaut ) mercenaries in Hyderabad dominant...and with the group name Jawsh ...Jeysh (ar. army)

~and I have to add research indicates blades entering the Indian Ocean from The West Indian region ..Bombay.

Your comments appreciated please.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Andreas

You will find a digitized copy of Buttin's catalogue here http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6524676d
Plates I-XXXII at the end, the description for #1009 is on page 262.

Salaams!! Excellently placed material here by Andreas. There are actually more charts relevant to the overall picture well stocked with similar swords. The charts are at the back of the digitized book.
I am considering at the moment how the name Nimcha evolved and if it is a Baluchi word (possibly Iranian Baluch) how it became diffused if in fact it did spread to North Africa ...or whether this is more to do with worldwide sword nomenclature rather than the sword itself ? There is some evidence which points in the Indo Baluch or Iranian Baluch direction not least the huge inclusion of Baluch mercenary groups on the Zanj coast...and employed by Said the Great from about 1830...and a large number of such forces in the Great Lakes. Where this fits in the jigsaw of Nimcha terminology ..I am still trying to discover. There is even a place in India called Nimcha !

In reference to a note I made earlioer on Zanzibar City ...From Wikepedia note;
Quote "Zanzibar City is the capital and largest city of Zanzibar, in Tanzania. It is located on the west coast of Unguja, the main island of the Zanzibar Archipelago, roughly due north of Dar es Salaam across the Zanzibar Channel.''Unquote. At its heart is the old town of Stonetown.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

In his book "The races of Afghanistan" Henry Bellew discusses Nimchas, "The Half-and-Half", ie mixed race or converted "Kaffirs"

And Elgood and others explained that the very term Nimcha stems from Arabic Nim, half, and -cha, a diminutive suffix.

Thus, nothing specific sword-related. Kind of "Shorty":-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

In his book "The races of Afghanistan" Henry Bellew discusses Nimchas, "The Half-and-Half", ie mixed race or converted "Kaffirs"

And Elgood and others explained that the very term Nimcha stems from Arabic Nim, half, and -cha, a diminutive suffix.

Thus, nothing specific sword-related. Kind of "Shorty":-)

Salaams Ariel...I suspect this word has been misunderstood somewhere down the line. Nim isn't Arabic... Nuss would be...but Nim is Baluchi. it is also Persian (nim meaning half) as the mercenaries on the Zanj coast were largely from Iranian Baluchistan) Thus I suspect it was coined by the vast numbers of Baluch mercenaries on the Zanj not least the many squadrons employed to attack Fort Jesus by Said the Great after 1830...Please note the number of Baluch mercenaries also employed on exploration and with Burton far inland around the great lakes and in many places on the Zanj and of course stationed on Zanzibar.

Common practice in Baluch word twisting and bastardized phraseology I can see how Nimcha came about though I am still tracing the cha part...Does cha mean anything?....or is it just a handy ending... Nimcha... As a diminutive suffix yes I can see that and I use chamcha as another example...It means spoon...but the cha seems entirely superfluous except as a suffix of no meaning. When looking at the plural form it is important to be able to for the plural. In Army parlance Baluch if you want to say complicated mix up you use the singular and plural together agadam-bagadam... so I imagine swords... Nimchas would form around the structure Nimcha Chimcha....M is commonly substituted when nothing else works thus Gari Mari is plural for carts or cars. Table mable for tables. Kursi Mursi for chairs. There will be a quiz later on Baluch linguistics...

Oddly there is a Nimcha as a place in India which I am also looking at... What is more weird is how if this is a Baluch word did it backwash onto North African swords?....and when did the word start being used?...I might add that Nimcha are not at all all short as the Butin chart shows many full length and is why I posit that the term means single edged blade...of that type.

In addition I note a peculiarity on top of the Pommel of the Zanzibari type which has been considered before as a scorpion..but which I think is in fact a Turtle. That makes abundant sense as a ship borne weapon relating the type to the sea...(and that area; Zanzibar and North to Muscat as a huge Turtle breeding area)... The two ideas seem to interlock. The shorter version certainly advantageous at sea whilst the longer at Forts and shore locations. In both I would expect to see the Turtle insignia being common on the Zanzibar type and not on the Moroccan.... Which of course is true.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

...I might add that Nimcha are not at all all short as the Butin chart shows many full length and is why I posit that the term means single edged blade...of that type....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

my other nimcha (with a guard) has a 35 in. fullered single edge blade.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kronckew

my other nimcha (with a guard) has a 35 in. fullered single edge blade.

Salaams Kronkew ~ and is dated.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.