An old Tibetan warrior - Page 2

dennee · 18th March 2016, 05:04 AM

Those are great illustrations and examples. Thanks!

I'm not knowledgeable about rituals, but the painting of the blade strikes me as more likely to be Hindu, as that description suggests. A lot of Nepalese migrated into Bhutan and Sikkim during the nineteenth century.

Looks like I posted four photos of masked Tibetan dancers with koras in a 2009 post on this forum.

estcrh · 18th March 2016, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennee

Those are great illustrations and examples. Thanks!

I'm not knowledgeable about rituals, but the painting of the blade strikes me as more likely to be Hindu, as that description suggests. A lot of Nepalese migrated into Bhutan and Sikkim during the nineteenth century.

Looks like I posted four photos of masked Tibetan dancers with koras in a 2009 post on this forum.

Here they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennee

Four photos of Cham dancers at Pelkhor Choide monastery, Gyantse, Tibet, 1940s. The first is a photo from late 1942 taken by Brooke Dolan and Ilya Tolstoy and published in Rosemary Jones Tung's "A Portrait of Lost Tibet." The rest are from the late 1940s, taken by Pietro Francesco Mele and published in his book, "Tibet."

You'll notice that the ends of the khuda are straight or concave, and the grips are sometimes very simple, with no pommel.

In all the books I have read, I have never seen a reference to the use of khuda in Tibet except these photos. Gyantse is in the south, not a great distance to get khuda in trade or to have retained them from the Gorkha invasions in the 1790s and 1850s. Monasteries retained weapons in their protector chapels, and this weapon may have appealed for use in dances as suitably otherworldly for its exotic form.

Gavin Nugent · 21st March 2016, 01:52 PM

Just to throw it out there, and thinking a little differently about the whole Tibetan Kora thing, what say perhaps the Kora was specifically a very early weapon from Tibet that founds its way to Nepal and then in to India? I only say this when consideration is given to the Assam/Naga/Kachin regions which saw a lot of trade and migration from Tibet through the centuries...their typical weapons carry this curved tip with horn like protrusions.
Note the hair pin laminated Kachin blade, a typical feature on these weapons...note also further below a recent sword from Assam regions that was at auction...Tibetan blade repurposed for local Assam regions traditions.

Gavin

estcrh · 21st March 2016, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Just to throw it out there, and thinking a little differently about the whole Tibetan Kora thing, what say perhaps the Kora was specifically a very early weapon from Tibet that founds its way to Nepal and then in to India? I only say this when consideration is given to the Assam/Naga/Kachin regions which saw a lot of trade and migration from Tibet through the centuries...their typical weapons carry this curved tip with horn like protrusions.
Note the hair pin laminated Kachin blade, a typical feature on these weapons...note also further below a recent sword from Assam regions that was at auction...Tibetan blade repurposed for local Assam regions traditions.

Gavin

So which came first, the Assam sword or the kora?

dennee · 22nd March 2016, 04:48 AM

All that is required to support a hypothesis is evidence. So far, no one has brought forward evidence of early or widespread use of the kora in Tibet. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence of use in Nepal, and similarities between koras and kukris.

The Kachin dha comes out of Burma, admittedly Assam-adjacent, although folks tend to insist on calling it Naga, presumably because some were acquired by the eastern Nagas. But if you look at traditional Naga blades, they are smaller and differently shaped---axes, really, usually on a wood haft. Some Naga axes have concave ends, but they don't look like koras. The Khasis probably had the most access to iron in the hills and the most advanced metal technology. But their 'national' sword, and those of the Garos, are not closely related to koras. The little Kuki sword would probably have the closest resemblance, but not very close.

That the Tibetans traded blades and even bought off potential raiders from nearby tribes with blades is well enough documented. But that form of knife doesn't seem to have much to do with koras.

Gavin Nugent · 22nd March 2016, 11:16 AM

Indeed the swords and axes from these regions do not resemble a Kora overall, but nothing else really does either, not even the Kukri, except they may now and then share the hilt types...but then these OLD Kora types noted as Tibet do not follow the common hilt form either.
With regards to the image I placed above, from left to right it was Kachin, Naga, Kachin.

With regards to (and although undocumented), the tip note I have throw out there to ponder, what other weapons have these concave tips like this...none come to mind except the dao and axes from the regions of Assam and Northern Burma.

Specifically looking at the known Indian Kora and the known Nepal Kora, the large ends look rather like an Indian Elephant ear,right down to the central point, important animals to the regions and the religions...not so important in Tibet...so IF these narrow old Kora with the protrusions are Tibetan, what form was the tip styled on?

Gavin

shayde78 · 16th December 2018, 06:25 PM

Check out post #28 here for more speculation about Nepalese/Tibetan/Assam connection.

I love meandering down some of these past threads and considering things that have never yet crossed my mind. All of it reinforces to me that the world is both more vast and more finite than I typically appreciate.

ariel · 17th December 2018, 01:06 AM

Hi Shayde,
I really like your attempt to introduce Assamese Dao onto the the Kora family.
Never thought about it but now... I agree with you: it looks like (at the very least) a cousin thrice removed.

ariel · 17th December 2018, 01:10 AM

Hi Shayde,
I really like your attempt to introduce Assamese Dao to the the Kora family.
Never thought about it but now... I agree with you: it looks like (at the very least) a cousin thrice removed.

Bob A · 17th December 2018, 07:07 AM

My limited information regarding Assamese weapons notes that the Naga dao was not indigenous in production; supposedly iron was not readily available, and blades were imported. Bower reported that quality swords were sought from Bhutan and Tibet.

18th March 2016, 05:04 AM	#31
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Those are great illustrations and examples. Thanks! I'm not knowledgeable about rituals, but the painting of the blade strikes me as more likely to be Hindu, as that description suggests. A lot of Nepalese migrated into Bhutan and Sikkim during the nineteenth century. Looks like I posted four photos of masked Tibetan dancers with koras in a 2009 post on this forum. Last edited by dennee; 18th March 2016 at 05:38 AM.

21st March 2016, 01:52 PM	#33
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Just to throw it out there, and thinking a little differently about the whole Tibetan Kora thing, what say perhaps the Kora was specifically a very early weapon from Tibet that founds its way to Nepal and then in to India? I only say this when consideration is given to the Assam/Naga/Kachin regions which saw a lot of trade and migration from Tibet through the centuries...their typical weapons carry this curved tip with horn like protrusions. Note the hair pin laminated Kachin blade, a typical feature on these weapons...note also further below a recent sword from Assam regions that was at auction...Tibetan blade repurposed for local Assam regions traditions. Gavin Attached Images

22nd March 2016, 04:48 AM	#35
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	All that is required to support a hypothesis is evidence. So far, no one has brought forward evidence of early or widespread use of the kora in Tibet. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence of use in Nepal, and similarities between koras and kukris. The Kachin dha comes out of Burma, admittedly Assam-adjacent, although folks tend to insist on calling it Naga, presumably because some were acquired by the eastern Nagas. But if you look at traditional Naga blades, they are smaller and differently shaped---axes, really, usually on a wood haft. Some Naga axes have concave ends, but they don't look like koras. The Khasis probably had the most access to iron in the hills and the most advanced metal technology. But their 'national' sword, and those of the Garos, are not closely related to koras. The little Kuki sword would probably have the closest resemblance, but not very close. That the Tibetans traded blades and even bought off potential raiders from nearby tribes with blades is well enough documented. But that form of knife doesn't seem to have much to do with koras.

22nd March 2016, 11:16 AM	#36
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Indeed the swords and axes from these regions do not resemble a Kora overall, but nothing else really does either, not even the Kukri, except they may now and then share the hilt types...but then these OLD Kora types noted as Tibet do not follow the common hilt form either. With regards to the image I placed above, from left to right it was Kachin, Naga, Kachin. With regards to (and although undocumented), the tip note I have throw out there to ponder, what other weapons have these concave tips like this...none come to mind except the dao and axes from the regions of Assam and Northern Burma. Specifically looking at the known Indian Kora and the known Nepal Kora, the large ends look rather like an Indian Elephant ear,right down to the central point, important animals to the regions and the religions...not so important in Tibet...so IF these narrow old Kora with the protrusions are Tibetan, what form was the tip styled on? Gavin

16th December 2018, 06:25 PM	#37
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Check out post #28 here for more speculation about Nepalese/Tibetan/Assam connection. I love meandering down some of these past threads and considering things that have never yet crossed my mind. All of it reinforces to me that the world is both more vast and more finite than I typically appreciate.

17th December 2018, 01:06 AM	#38
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Hi Shayde, I really like your attempt to introduce Assamese Dao onto the the Kora family. Never thought about it but now... I agree with you: it looks like (at the very least) a cousin thrice removed.

17th December 2018, 01:10 AM	#39
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Hi Shayde, I really like your attempt to introduce Assamese Dao to the the Kora family. Never thought about it but now... I agree with you: it looks like (at the very least) a cousin thrice removed.

17th December 2018, 07:07 AM	#40
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	My limited information regarding Assamese weapons notes that the Naga dao was not indigenous in production; supposedly iron was not readily available, and blades were imported. Bower reported that quality swords were sought from Bhutan and Tibet.