Eagle Pommel Swords

Hotspur · 15th January 2015, 06:20 AM

Sometime during the past dozen years I developed an ocd regarding eagle pommel swords. A chaotic disorder of image harvesting commenced. Hundreds of examples, thousands of files. None meant for general publication without permission but rather a study tool.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...Ws&usp=sharing

Misplaced examples (sometimes purposefully), non eagle swords and even jewelry. Far from done with winnowing the wheat from the chaf, I went ahead and uploaded the mess for any to view. my acquisitions have slowed down, as I found examples I was looking for. One remains to be found but maybe down the road.

www.oldswords.com is another more organized way to browse early modern swords.

The Lattimer pages and other copyrighted images shared here for informational purposes. At some point I plan on an article but it is tough to top whatt has already been published.

I had been concentratring mostly on the first Ketland, Osborn and Bolton birds but seem to have collected a few others. I am still looking for a horn or wood gripped Bolton sabre. There are plenty of the bone and ivory sabres and dark hilt spadroons but I have only seen a couple of dark hilt Bolton sabres.

My stuff is in the Groups folder and other associated folders.

Cheers

GC

M ELEY · 18th January 2015, 12:19 AM

Hello Glenn,

Spectacular amount of information here on eagle heads! Thanks for posting these! My favorite are the Prahl types and the early 4-slot hilt patterns. I had a question for you. You have a listing of Francis Thurkle types and I noticed many of the models listed have the side bar with the cut out diamond pattern guard. I was wondering if this was exclusive or at least a favorite design of his? I have a naval-type officer's sword c.1790 with the same type guard. I know Thurkle did all manner of naval officer type swords and was just curious. Thanks again for your diligence in posting this plethora of info!
Mark

Hotspur · 18th January 2015, 06:44 AM

Hi Mark,

I don't think the diamond in the counterguard is specific to a maker, or intended service simply because I see it on a variety of Birmingham swords, my Wooley spadroon has a diamond. With the Thurkle eagles, I typically only see the 1796 like spadroons and the big sabres. I was lucky to find a Thurkle in my price range and that only because it has a cracked blade and looked like it had been in a fire. Mine revealed all its gilt under the soot. It is a big sword, as you might note at the top of the rack.

My files really are a work in progress and I have somewhat slowed down, even to the point of stalling a bit. So much has been well published that while there are still questions to be answered, much has been accounted for. We have come a long way since Peterson's 1954 old testament came out. I still have a lot of questions about Birmingham and John Salter(&Co) specifically because of the longevity of the exports.

The Phrals are spectacular in person. I doubt I will ever own one. I saw a very clean example well into the five figure mark but could only gawk and keep my hands in my pockets. The other American Baltimore and Philadelphia eagles quite scarce on the market as well. There was an interesting Emmor T Weaver eagle a month or so ago that may not be in those files (yet). My all time favorites still seem to be the Boltons. Followed by the Osborn weepers.

Thanks for the interest

GC

Here is that Weaver

TVV · 13th March 2016, 12:15 AM

I just acquired this sword, and since my main interests are ethnographic weapons and Bulgarian military patterns, I have to admit, I know very little about it. I am going to get a copy of Mowbray's book, but I suspect this is a later sword past 1830 and I am not sure I will find it there.

It has a screaming eagle pommel, but am I correct in thinking this is not an Ames, but rather a British made example, based on the ricasso and the blade decoration, consisting of blue & gilt and acid etched panels?

I would really appreciate any comments. Thank you,

Teodor

Hotspur · 13th March 2016, 01:08 AM

A pretty bird and definitely one of the British examples. I have to still puzzle in my mind about dating the screaming eagles of this variety. We have to keep in mind that blades could be from stock and surplus mounted for decades. Very true in this case, as I suspect the pommel and grip speak to the late 1830s. The guard a decade earlier, as well as the mixed white etch and b&g panels.

At any rate, I would place it between 1836 and the early 1840s. The Ames pommel and ferrule quite distinctly different than the English examples. The unstopped fullers were phased out in the 1840s, so we have to consider other factors after the 1830s. I had recently acquired an Ames example I place to the 1840s by virtue of the etching pattern. The blade of the later pattern I have file examples of later Ames sabers with ricassos as well, so the change reflects production after the adoption of 1840s regulation patterns of such as infantry and artillery swords.

This one definitely militia, as the earlier regulation infantry spadroons were silver was, this one a gilt hilt.

In Iding an Ames of this type, start with the pommel collar and ferrule. Then move to the blade etching. I know of no Ames examples of this bird with blue&gilt.

An edit to mention that you will not find your's in the early Mowbray title but you might find the British example in The Medicus Collection book put together by Norm Flayderman and Stuart (the son) Mowbray. While lacking in detail in depth, probably the best single flash card deck of American swords.

The eagles from Ames best represented in Hamilton's history of Ames. There rare still some copies of that book at original retail but they are drying up. Occasionally found on Ebay but I know of one dealer that may syill have some (as well as Don Furr's American sword book) You can reach me at gcleeton@gmailcom or PM here but email works better. I can send the dealer information if interested. I don't want to just link it here and be frowned upon

End edit

Cheers

GC

TVV · 13th March 2016, 04:57 AM

Glenn, I was hoping you would respond. Thank you very much for the thorough comment and the book recommendations. As a total novice I will probably start with the more general references.

Teodor

Terry K · 14th March 2016, 03:26 PM

These early American swords are some of my favorites!

Hotspur · 14th March 2016, 07:31 PM

Perhaps the most curious screaming eagle I have encountered is this Mexican hilt with a very Ames looking pommel and old Spanish cavalry blade. I still have these in a non-Ames folder but it is possible the guard and grip were always with the pommel and cast by Ames before the war with Mexico.

Cheers

GC

15th January 2015, 06:20 AM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Eagle Pommel Swords Sometime during the past dozen years I developed an ocd regarding eagle pommel swords. A chaotic disorder of image harvesting commenced. Hundreds of examples, thousands of files. None meant for general publication without permission but rather a study tool. https://drive.google.com/folderview?...Ws&usp=sharing Misplaced examples (sometimes purposefully), non eagle swords and even jewelry. Far from done with winnowing the wheat from the chaf, I went ahead and uploaded the mess for any to view. my acquisitions have slowed down, as I found examples I was looking for. One remains to be found but maybe down the road. www.oldswords.com is another more organized way to browse early modern swords. The Lattimer pages and other copyrighted images shared here for informational purposes. At some point I plan on an article but it is tough to top whatt has already been published. I had been concentratring mostly on the first Ketland, Osborn and Bolton birds but seem to have collected a few others. I am still looking for a horn or wood gripped Bolton sabre. There are plenty of the bone and ivory sabres and dark hilt spadroons but I have only seen a couple of dark hilt Bolton sabres. My stuff is in the Groups folder and other associated folders. Cheers GC Last edited by Hotspur; 15th January 2015 at 06:31 AM.

18th January 2015, 12:19 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Great source of info! Hello Glenn, Spectacular amount of information here on eagle heads! Thanks for posting these! My favorite are the Prahl types and the early 4-slot hilt patterns. I had a question for you. You have a listing of Francis Thurkle types and I noticed many of the models listed have the side bar with the cut out diamond pattern guard. I was wondering if this was exclusive or at least a favorite design of his? I have a naval-type officer's sword c.1790 with the same type guard. I know Thurkle did all manner of naval officer type swords and was just curious. Thanks again for your diligence in posting this plethora of info! Mark

18th January 2015, 06:44 AM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Hi Mark, I don't think the diamond in the counterguard is specific to a maker, or intended service simply because I see it on a variety of Birmingham swords, my Wooley spadroon has a diamond. With the Thurkle eagles, I typically only see the 1796 like spadroons and the big sabres. I was lucky to find a Thurkle in my price range and that only because it has a cracked blade and looked like it had been in a fire. Mine revealed all its gilt under the soot. It is a big sword, as you might note at the top of the rack. My files really are a work in progress and I have somewhat slowed down, even to the point of stalling a bit. So much has been well published that while there are still questions to be answered, much has been accounted for. We have come a long way since Peterson's 1954 old testament came out. I still have a lot of questions about Birmingham and John Salter(&Co) specifically because of the longevity of the exports. The Phrals are spectacular in person. I doubt I will ever own one. I saw a very clean example well into the five figure mark but could only gawk and keep my hands in my pockets. The other American Baltimore and Philadelphia eagles quite scarce on the market as well. There was an interesting Emmor T Weaver eagle a month or so ago that may not be in those files (yet). My all time favorites still seem to be the Boltons. Followed by the Osborn weepers. Thanks for the interest GC Here is that Weaver Attached Images

13th March 2016, 12:15 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	I just acquired this sword, and since my main interests are ethnographic weapons and Bulgarian military patterns, I have to admit, I know very little about it. I am going to get a copy of Mowbray's book, but I suspect this is a later sword past 1830 and I am not sure I will find it there. It has a screaming eagle pommel, but am I correct in thinking this is not an Ames, but rather a British made example, based on the ricasso and the blade decoration, consisting of blue & gilt and acid etched panels? I would really appreciate any comments. Thank you, Teodor Attached Images

13th March 2016, 01:08 AM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	A pretty bird and definitely one of the British examples. I have to still puzzle in my mind about dating the screaming eagles of this variety. We have to keep in mind that blades could be from stock and surplus mounted for decades. Very true in this case, as I suspect the pommel and grip speak to the late 1830s. The guard a decade earlier, as well as the mixed white etch and b&g panels. At any rate, I would place it between 1836 and the early 1840s. The Ames pommel and ferrule quite distinctly different than the English examples. The unstopped fullers were phased out in the 1840s, so we have to consider other factors after the 1830s. I had recently acquired an Ames example I place to the 1840s by virtue of the etching pattern. The blade of the later pattern I have file examples of later Ames sabers with ricassos as well, so the change reflects production after the adoption of 1840s regulation patterns of such as infantry and artillery swords. This one definitely militia, as the earlier regulation infantry spadroons were silver was, this one a gilt hilt. In Iding an Ames of this type, start with the pommel collar and ferrule. Then move to the blade etching. I know of no Ames examples of this bird with blue&gilt. An edit to mention that you will not find your's in the early Mowbray title but you might find the British example in The Medicus Collection book put together by Norm Flayderman and Stuart (the son) Mowbray. While lacking in detail in depth, probably the best single flash card deck of American swords. The eagles from Ames best represented in Hamilton's history of Ames. There rare still some copies of that book at original retail but they are drying up. Occasionally found on Ebay but I know of one dealer that may syill have some (as well as Don Furr's American sword book) You can reach me at gcleeton@gmailcom or PM here but email works better. I can send the dealer information if interested. I don't want to just link it here and be frowned upon End edit Cheers GC Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 13th March 2016 at 01:33 AM.

13th March 2016, 04:57 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	Glenn, I was hoping you would respond. Thank you very much for the thorough comment and the book recommendations. As a total novice I will probably start with the more general references. Teodor

14th March 2016, 03:26 PM	#7
Terry K Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 86	These early American swords are some of my favorites!

14th March 2016, 07:31 PM	#8
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Perhaps the most curious screaming eagle I have encountered is this Mexican hilt with a very Ames looking pommel and old Spanish cavalry blade. I still have these in a non-Ames folder but it is possible the guard and grip were always with the pommel and cast by Ames before the war with Mexico. Cheers GC Attached Images