Strange mark on tang

AHorsa · 27th February 2016, 12:15 AM

Dear All,

I found those markings on a late 17th century blate tang. Can anyone identify it?

Best regards
Andreas

Philip · 1st March 2016, 09:34 AM

The markings look like a very stylized version of Arabic. Could you post a pic of the entire blade so we have some sort of context?

fernando · 1st March 2016, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

... Could you post a pic of the entire blade so we have some sort of context?

... As it should be

.

AHorsa · 1st March 2016, 10:01 PM

Sorry, only had this image on my mobile. Will post pictures of the entire blade when I am back home next week.

AHorsa · 6th March 2016, 07:09 PM

Here are the images. It belongs to a late swiss sabre. Sadly it was opened.

AHorsa · 6th March 2016, 09:07 PM

Just found another mark on the tang:

Jim McDougall · 7th March 2016, 07:02 AM

I still cannot imagine what that odd grouping of characters would mean, and it seems even far fetched for pseudo Islamic script. The also very odd cartouche device is puzzling. The inscribed decoration on the blade itself seems to be very 'East European' with the trellis type motif.

This hilt however looks very much like a 'dogs head pommel ' hanger of the Netherlands c. 1650-60 ("European Weapons and Armour", E Oakeshott, 1980, plate 20,(E)
One of these similar hilts is in the Rotius painting of " The Banner of Capt. Jan Simonsz Jongemasts Town Guard of Hoorn" (1652).

There was a rather symbolic use of Ottoman devices such as the crescent and garb etc by the Dutch forces in the long revolt against Spain (1568-1648) and these 'geuzen' (also known as 'sea beggars'). This appears to be significant in the use of the crescent man in the moon symbol .
The Dutch had sought assistance from the Ottoman Sultan, but there isno evidence any ever transpired, nor were there significant contacts despite regular trade between Turkey and the Netherlands.
The theme was rather unusual for the devout Protestants as it claimed ' rather a Turk than a Papist', vehemently against the Catholicism of Spain.

While it is tempting to suggest this seemingly stylized Islamic script might be associated, it is a European blade of the period and such oblique use of this as a device in the manner of crescent etc. would not be served being hidden under the hilt. ....so who knows?

Looking forward to other possibilities.

Philip · 7th March 2016, 07:02 AM

Thanks for the additional pics, Andreas. Well, that throws my Arabic theory out the window, the blade seems to be of purely European design. The punched mark on the root of the tang looks Western to me as well. I checked my references on Mamluk and early Ottoman blades (on which tang markings are occasionally found) but there's nothing close. A longer inscription as you had posted originally would be found on the exposed portion of the blade on such weapons. And although a couple of the letters have a passing resemblance (hence my use of the word "stylized") , it's a matter of close but no cigar at any rate. Hopefully, somebody out there has a better idea.

27th February 2016, 12:15 AM	#1
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Strange mark on tang Dear All, I found those markings on a late 17th century blate tang. Can anyone identify it? Best regards Andreas Attached Images

1st March 2016, 09:34 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	what kind of sword is it? The markings look like a very stylized version of Arabic. Could you post a pic of the entire blade so we have some sort of context?

6th March 2016, 07:09 PM	#5
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Here are the images. It belongs to a late swiss sabre. Sadly it was opened. Attached Images

6th March 2016, 09:07 PM	#6
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Just found another mark on the tang: Attached Images

1st March 2016, 10:01 PM	#4
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Sorry, only had this image on my mobile. Will post pictures of the entire blade when I am back home next week.

7th March 2016, 07:02 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I still cannot imagine what that odd grouping of characters would mean, and it seems even far fetched for pseudo Islamic script. The also very odd cartouche device is puzzling. The inscribed decoration on the blade itself seems to be very 'East European' with the trellis type motif. This hilt however looks very much like a 'dogs head pommel ' hanger of the Netherlands c. 1650-60 ("European Weapons and Armour", E Oakeshott, 1980, plate 20,(E) One of these similar hilts is in the Rotius painting of " The Banner of Capt. Jan Simonsz Jongemasts Town Guard of Hoorn" (1652). There was a rather symbolic use of Ottoman devices such as the crescent and garb etc by the Dutch forces in the long revolt against Spain (1568-1648) and these 'geuzen' (also known as 'sea beggars'). This appears to be significant in the use of the crescent man in the moon symbol . The Dutch had sought assistance from the Ottoman Sultan, but there isno evidence any ever transpired, nor were there significant contacts despite regular trade between Turkey and the Netherlands. The theme was rather unusual for the devout Protestants as it claimed ' rather a Turk than a Papist', vehemently against the Catholicism of Spain. While it is tempting to suggest this seemingly stylized Islamic script might be associated, it is a European blade of the period and such oblique use of this as a device in the manner of crescent etc. would not be served being hidden under the hilt. ....so who knows? Looking forward to other possibilities.