Mandinka Sword Mark

ksdw · 31st December 2015, 07:19 PM

Hi,

I am hoping that someone may be able to provide information about a mark on the blade of a Mandinka Sword that I have.

I purchased the sword at an auction many years ago and am just curious about the mark. I have searched on the internet without any luck.

Much appreciated
ksdw

Henk · 1st January 2016, 02:52 PM

Not a single reaction?

This is not my field, but it is a great looking sword. My guess is a rehilted reworked british sabre.

Iain · 1st January 2016, 02:56 PM

No reaction doesn't mean some of us aren't trying to find an answer.

Its a nice example and so far I've had no luck IDing the mark.

Tim Simmons · 1st January 2016, 05:06 PM

According to " Pictorial History of Swords & Bayonets, R.J.Wilkinson.Latham" the crown is "British inspectors mark" and from "Swords of the British Army, Brian Robson, National Army museum Publications" the blade appears to be a version of a troopers "sword, light cavalry, pattern 1796" To cut a long story short, they were in service for about 30 years. Discarded swords were much sought after in India and I suspect traded widely elsewhere.
These swords were made by private manufacturers, supply delays due to wretched quality led to the decision that in future the Board of Ordnance would maintain a reserve of properly tested swords at the tower of London to meet any sudden expansion.

So tracking down the mark which I think is "Warren" might prove quick a task.

Iain · 1st January 2016, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

According to " Pictorial History of Swords & Bayonets, R.J.Wilkinson.Latham" the crown is "British inspectors mark" and from "Swords of the British Army, Brian Robson, National Army museum Publications" the blade appears to be a version of a troopers "sword, light cavalry, pattern 1796" To cut a long story short, they were in service for about 30 years. Discarded swords were much sought after in India and I suspect traded widely elsewhere.
These swords were made by private manufacturers, supply delays due to wretched quality led to the decision that in future the Board of Ordnance would maintain a reserve of properly tested swords at the tower of London to meet any sudden expansion.

So tracking down the mark which I think is "Warren" might prove quick a task.

Hi Tim,

I agree the crown appears to correspond to a British inspection mark, however typically this is followed by a letter and/or a number. The lion is quite odd in this regard and the bit I'm having trouble tracking down.

Tim Simmons · 1st January 2016, 05:46 PM

Who knows how strict or how slack or the proper stamping procedure now?

RobertGuy · 1st January 2016, 08:37 PM

The fuller looks too narrow for a British 1796 LC sword. Similar to the 1896 Mountain Artillery blade, however the crown mark is not a British Inspection stamp. It does not look like there is enough room on the blade but could WARREN actually be WARRENTED a mark often seen on British and German made blades. My money would be on a Solingen blade, otherwise Bezdek gives Thomas Warren and successor Mary Warren trading at Chancery Lane 1846 - 1871.

Tim Simmons · 1st January 2016, 10:47 PM

Multiple private manufactures were producing versions hence the problem with quality. I will scan the illustration of the inspection mark. You have to bear in mind a time that is just before mechanized, standardized, industry and government issue. Yes the blades were influenced by Germanic forms.

Germany was not a unified state at this time so I am not sure the crown mark is anything to do with Solingen? A state crown did not appear until 1871. Austria had a crown and the Army museum publication does say that the 1796 blade was followed from the Austrian sword.

Bavarian perhaps?

Tim Simmons · 1st January 2016, 11:45 PM

This could help, but again before true standardisation.

mrcjgscott · 2nd January 2016, 04:29 PM

Certainly not 1796 light cavalry blade. More likely a hanger or cutlass blade which has been reworked.

The marking could be that of the East India Company, and is probably "Warranted" or a shortening there of as Robert has already suggested.

Kind regards,

Chris

Helleri · 7th January 2016, 05:38 PM

I am really only familiar with silver assay marks so I don't know how helpful this is. But Sheffield, England has always used the crown in combination with the lion. The arrangement and specific crown and lion used indicates the year. but they are stamped left to right. Of course this is not silver. But if people are thinking England but no clue on specifically where. The crown and lion are a Sheffield thing. And Sheffield does have an extensive history with cutlery as well, sooo...maybe?

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2016, 12:19 AM

I think everyone has made great suggestions here, and for me I remain inclined to see this as a M1796 light cavalry blade. As Iain has noted, the British inspection stamps were crowns over numbers and punched singly in the forte region without other marks.
The idea of the warranted banner is excellent as the blades of these times into early years of the 19th often had warranted placed at some location, it seems like most often however they were on officers blades. Also, it does appear that the word ran out of room in its placement if that be the case.

Also, the name of the maker or contractor in these times was usually punched at the blade spine just under hilt. I have not seen a crowned lion as far as I recall in this manner on British blades.

The Manding in these regions were profoundly merchants and traders in this hub of trade in the Sahara, so all manner of foreign blades were available to them. Mostly we see French cavalry blades or Solingen sabre blades, but British are sometimes seen, usually later in the 19th.
The British M1796 seems to have had a long and quite diffused life, and many of these ended up in the Spanish colonial (often termed Berber) sabres, usually reprofiled tips. These are often cold stamped with names of importers etc. Perhaps this might be one of such coming into the Maghrebi entrepots and traded to the south?

BTW, I think Helleri has a very good point, often these hallmark symbols seem to have become in some degree associated with markings used on blades, and their characteristics and configurations as in multiples. In most hallmarking it seems there are groupings of several together.

With the note on East India Company, the rampant lion was indeed the bale mark for the Company c. 1810 which replaced the quadrant heart V/E/I/C
but according to David Harding ("Small Arms of the East India Company") such marks were never used on swords, only on firearms.
I would note here that though that be the case, industrious armourers in the Northwest Frontiers of India, where among other arms, these blades certainly prevailed, it does not seem unlikely that these artisans might have reproduced such marks just as they have long done on gunlocks.

This might account as well for the misplacement of the warranted banner.

It seems plausible such 'recycled' blades among other materials would have entered Red Sea trade networks via Omani traders and perhaps into the routes into the interior where they might have eventually reached Mali.

Helleri · 8th January 2016, 11:20 AM

Taking a second look. That doesn't actually look stamped. Most hallmarks that are stamped on are not cut in like that. Stamps are mostly relieved or at the very least have outlying marks from where the edge of the stamp struck the surface. It occurs to me that this could have been carefully done by hand with engraving tools....Is it possible that a maker may have forged some vaguely euro-like marks in order to raise the value on a less remarkable blade?

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2016, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helleri

Taking a second look. That doesn't actually look stamped. Most hallmarks that are stamped on are not cut in like that. Stamps are mostly relieved or at the very least have outlying marks from where the edge of the stamp struck the surface. It occurs to me that this could have been carefully done by hand with engraving tools....Is it possible that a maker may have forged some vaguely euro-like marks in order to raise the value on a less remarkable blade?

Well observed. This is more supportive of the armourers in those Northwest Frontiers of India, where these British M1796 blades were very much favored for tulwars. Actually the regulation M1796 was superceeded in 1821 by the three bar hilt pattern with a different type blade more for cut as well as thrust and far less heavy as these.
The native Indian warriors favored these more substantial blades for their dramatic slashing potential.
Actually the M1796 remained with native units in the Raj as their chosen sword style and these stirrup hilts were even produced by private contractors for India into the early 20th c.

It seems odd that the native armourers in the remote regions such as the Khyber itself would go to the lengths of adding such marks to a blade, but they certainly did so with the gun locks through the 19th c. and into the 20th. This is why you see EIC marks appearing on so many reproduced pieces. This could be a native version of the rampant lion mark of the EIC.

31st December 2015, 07:19 PM	#1
ksdw Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 1	Mandinka Sword Mark Hi, I am hoping that someone may be able to provide information about a mark on the blade of a Mandinka Sword that I have. I purchased the sword at an auction many years ago and am just curious about the mark. I have searched on the internet without any luck. Much appreciated ksdw Attached Images

1st January 2016, 10:47 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Multiple private manufactures were producing versions hence the problem with quality. I will scan the illustration of the inspection mark. You have to bear in mind a time that is just before mechanized, standardized, industry and government issue. Yes the blades were influenced by Germanic forms. Germany was not a unified state at this time so I am not sure the crown mark is anything to do with Solingen? A state crown did not appear until 1871. Austria had a crown and the Army museum publication does say that the 1796 blade was followed from the Austrian sword. Bavarian perhaps? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 1st January 2016 at 11:27 PM.

1st January 2016, 02:52 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Not a single reaction? This is not my field, but it is a great looking sword. My guess is a rehilted reworked british sabre.

1st January 2016, 02:56 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	No reaction doesn't mean some of us aren't trying to find an answer. Its a nice example and so far I've had no luck IDing the mark.

1st January 2016, 05:06 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	According to " Pictorial History of Swords & Bayonets, R.J.Wilkinson.Latham" the crown is "British inspectors mark" and from "Swords of the British Army, Brian Robson, National Army museum Publications" the blade appears to be a version of a troopers "sword, light cavalry, pattern 1796" To cut a long story short, they were in service for about 30 years. Discarded swords were much sought after in India and I suspect traded widely elsewhere. These swords were made by private manufacturers, supply delays due to wretched quality led to the decision that in future the Board of Ordnance would maintain a reserve of properly tested swords at the tower of London to meet any sudden expansion. So tracking down the mark which I think is "Warren" might prove quick a task.

1st January 2016, 05:46 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Who knows how strict or how slack or the proper stamping procedure now?

1st January 2016, 08:37 PM	#7
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	The fuller looks too narrow for a British 1796 LC sword. Similar to the 1896 Mountain Artillery blade, however the crown mark is not a British Inspection stamp. It does not look like there is enough room on the blade but could WARREN actually be WARRENTED a mark often seen on British and German made blades. My money would be on a Solingen blade, otherwise Bezdek gives Thomas Warren and successor Mary Warren trading at Chancery Lane 1846 - 1871.

2nd January 2016, 04:29 PM	#10
mrcjgscott Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 189	Certainly not 1796 light cavalry blade. More likely a hanger or cutlass blade which has been reworked. The marking could be that of the East India Company, and is probably "Warranted" or a shortening there of as Robert has already suggested. Kind regards, Chris

7th January 2016, 05:38 PM	#11
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	I am really only familiar with silver assay marks so I don't know how helpful this is. But Sheffield, England has always used the crown in combination with the lion. The arrangement and specific crown and lion used indicates the year. but they are stamped left to right. Of course this is not silver. But if people are thinking England but no clue on specifically where. The crown and lion are a Sheffield thing. And Sheffield does have an extensive history with cutlery as well, sooo...maybe?

8th January 2016, 12:19 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	I think everyone has made great suggestions here, and for me I remain inclined to see this as a M1796 light cavalry blade. As Iain has noted, the British inspection stamps were crowns over numbers and punched singly in the forte region without other marks. The idea of the warranted banner is excellent as the blades of these times into early years of the 19th often had warranted placed at some location, it seems like most often however they were on officers blades. Also, it does appear that the word ran out of room in its placement if that be the case. Also, the name of the maker or contractor in these times was usually punched at the blade spine just under hilt. I have not seen a crowned lion as far as I recall in this manner on British blades. The Manding in these regions were profoundly merchants and traders in this hub of trade in the Sahara, so all manner of foreign blades were available to them. Mostly we see French cavalry blades or Solingen sabre blades, but British are sometimes seen, usually later in the 19th. The British M1796 seems to have had a long and quite diffused life, and many of these ended up in the Spanish colonial (often termed Berber) sabres, usually reprofiled tips. These are often cold stamped with names of importers etc. Perhaps this might be one of such coming into the Maghrebi entrepots and traded to the south? BTW, I think Helleri has a very good point, often these hallmark symbols seem to have become in some degree associated with markings used on blades, and their characteristics and configurations as in multiples. In most hallmarking it seems there are groupings of several together. With the note on East India Company, the rampant lion was indeed the bale mark for the Company c. 1810 which replaced the quadrant heart V/E/I/C but according to David Harding ("Small Arms of the East India Company") such marks were never used on swords, only on firearms. I would note here that though that be the case, industrious armourers in the Northwest Frontiers of India, where among other arms, these blades certainly prevailed, it does not seem unlikely that these artisans might have reproduced such marks just as they have long done on gunlocks. This might account as well for the misplacement of the warranted banner. It seems plausible such 'recycled' blades among other materials would have entered Red Sea trade networks via Omani traders and perhaps into the routes into the interior where they might have eventually reached Mali.

8th January 2016, 11:20 AM	#13
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Taking a second look. That doesn't actually look stamped. Most hallmarks that are stamped on are not cut in like that. Stamps are mostly relieved or at the very least have outlying marks from where the edge of the stamp struck the surface. It occurs to me that this could have been carefully done by hand with engraving tools....Is it possible that a maker may have forged some vaguely euro-like marks in order to raise the value on a less remarkable blade?