Keris Madura with Thai influences

maxbliss888 · 10th June 2015, 05:26 AM

I am new to Keris and this hobby is very interesting and addictive as there are so much to learn.

I have come across an interesting Keris in Thailand with a Madura hilt/ Hulu but style Thai for the blade and the shield.

Any comment?

kai · 10th June 2015, 08:46 AM

Hello Max,

Welcome to the forum!

Quote:

I have come across an interesting Keris in Thailand with a Madura hilt/ Hulu but style Thai for the blade and the shield.

Close-ups of the blade would be good. From this pic I'd guess this blade to hail from Madura, too.

Just one more comment: While collected in Thailand, there doesn't seem to have ever been any kind of keris culture among the ethnic Thai. Granted, quite a few keris are on display in the Bangkok palaces and occasionally one might have been worn at court but apparently more as a curio item (most were likely diplomatic gifts or war booties).

Thus, I'd avoid to refer to a keris as being "Thai" (as in "style Thai" or "Thai influences"). If anything, these keris are (northern) Malay, ethnically. Keris from southern Thailand seems like a reasonable/neutral description; however, Pattani/etc. would be much more informative IMVHO. We all know that modern state boundaries usually are a result of accumulated historic "accidents" - OTOH we're discussing cultural artefacts here and, thus, focusing on the originating culture does help. Sorry for the rant...

Regards,
Kai

maxbliss888 · 10th June 2015, 09:04 AM

Hi!

Thanks for the clarification.

When I compare the scabbord with those of Indonesia, it looked different, which is why I see that perhaps this Keris has the Madura hilt but Southern Thai styled scabbord?

Regards,

maxbliss888 · 10th June 2015, 01:37 PM

Photo

kai · 11th June 2015, 08:34 AM

Hello Max,

Quote:

When I compare the scabbord with those of Indonesia, it looked different

What exactly did you compare it with?

To me this looks like a fairly typical example of a scabbard with crescent crosspiece. Quite commonly seen throughout Sumatra, the Straits area, and the Malay peninsula.

Since wood doesn't last terribly long in a tropical climate, this may have been a local replacement (looks old and good quality wood); or it may have been an attempt to acculturate an imported keris to local tastes.

Regards,
Kai

maxbliss888 · 11th June 2015, 09:25 AM

Thanks!

I am thinking of getting this and just wanted to make sure that the Keris with the Madura hilt fits with the Cerita blade are all correct..

Gustav · 11th June 2015, 11:18 AM

Of course there are a lot of older Keris with parts from different locations, and even more newer "marriages".

If you go for the blade (which is a peninsular one) - even if its fit with the sheath is ok, it is quite worn, Greneng completely disappeared, Wadidang disturbed. You surely would come across a better Cherita blade someday.

A. G. Maisey · 16th June 2015, 09:03 AM

Hilt Madura, maybe blade too.

maxbliss888 · 31st October 2015, 06:04 PM

maxbliss888 · 31st October 2015, 06:07 PM

Keris....

maxbliss888 · 31st October 2015, 06:39 PM

Keris....
Thailand

David · 1st November 2015, 10:29 PM

Hi Max...i am afraid that there is nothing Thai about that hilt. Again i believe we are looking at a hilt from Madura, or possibly Northern Jawa. The pendokok at the base of this hilt i am not as certain about, but it is a mismatch with this particular hilt for sure and doesn't fit either by sizing or style.
I cannot comment on the blade since you have not posted a photo of it. I have seen variations of this scabbard form used with keris from both Sumatra and the Peninsula. Is there some reasoning you are using to identify this keris a Thai that you can share for a better understanding of what you are talking about?

A. G. Maisey · 1st November 2015, 11:23 PM

David, I think Max might be talking about the keris itself, ie, the blade, rather than the dress around the blade.

There is a school of thought that holds that only the blade is the keris, all else is irrelevant.

David · 2nd November 2015, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I think Max might be talking about the keris itself, ie, the blade, rather than the dress around the blade.

There is a school of thought that holds that only the blade is the keris, all else is irrelevant.

Understood Alan, but without an image of the blade (or even with one) the point is moot...

A. G. Maisey · 2nd November 2015, 01:13 AM

Sorry David, my error, I was looking the keris in post #4.

maxbliss888 · 2nd November 2015, 09:10 AM

I think you all are right as there were alot of cross fertilization across Southern Thai/Northen Malaysia and Sumatra and the region...

I think the Coteng and the Tajong have a stronger Southern Thai/Northern Malaysia identities...

maxbliss888 · 2nd November 2015, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I think Max might be talking about the keris itself, ie, the blade, rather than the dress around the blade.

There is a school of thought that holds that only the blade is the keris, all else is irrelevant.

Yes, I was referring to the blade itself. Sorry for the error as I was using my Ipad for my previous message and my ipad got hanged owing to the poor network...

David · 2nd November 2015, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxbliss888

Yes, I was referring to the blade itself. Sorry for the error as I was using my Ipad for my previous message and my ipad got hanged owing to the poor network...

No worries Max, but we still can't comment unless you are willing to post this particular blade.

Sajen · 3rd November 2015, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

No worries Max, but we still can't comment unless you are willing to post this particular blade.

Hello David,

when i don't get something completely wrong speak/ask Max about the shown Cherita blade in post #1 and 4.

To answer Max's query, IMVHO is the blade with the scabbard very good fitting, only the hilt from Madura look "strange", i.e. not suitable for the combination.

Regards,
Detlef

maxbliss888 · 3rd November 2015, 10:32 AM

Please see the blade

maxbliss888 · 3rd November 2015, 10:32 AM

Another

maxbliss888 · 3rd November 2015, 10:35 AM

Photo before and after restoration

maxbliss888 · 3rd November 2015, 12:50 PM

More photos

maxbliss888 · 8th November 2015, 12:38 PM

The Hulu ..

maxbliss888 · 8th November 2015, 12:49 PM

Tummenggungan

David · 8th November 2015, 07:37 PM

Yes Max, your keris does indeed have what some call a tumenggungan hilt that undoubtably originated in Madura. The oversized brass pendokok is a Bugis style AFAIK and inappropriate for this hilt both size-wise and culturally. The sheath form can be found on keris from both Sumatra and the Peninsula. I'll leave the origin of this blade to others. In it's current condition i am just not sure. Many times when we see keris ensembles that are a mishmash of cultures and styles to this degree they are mixes that have been slapped together my dealers in order to sell an ensemble that appears more complete. While this keris may well have been bought in Thailand it seems unlikely that calling it a Thai keris or even a keris with Thai influence is a valid or accurate descriptor.

A. G. Maisey · 9th November 2015, 11:17 AM

Max, I don't know what book you've presented a photo from, but I rather feel that the person who named that hilt form "temenggungan" is a little out of his depth.

The correct name is actually "tumenggungan", this name does not come from any flower of anything, rather it comes from the word "tumenggung", which is a part of a bupati's title. A bupati is a regent, who is responsible for the administration of a kabupaten, which is a semi-autonomous administrative district. In the old days the position of a bupati tended to pass from father to son, so the family became something like minor nobility.

The spelling "temenggungan" is a corruption which follows a local pronunciation.

The name "tumenggungan" indicates that this form of hilt would be suitable for wear by a tumenggung. The way in which the title is used is, for example, "Bupati Tumenggung Surodiningrat".

Incidentally, I probably should not be so positive as to say that this is the correct name, I probably should say that some people believe it to be the correct name.

Edit --- A further note:-

I just mentioned to an educated native speaker of Javanese the idea that the word "temu" is the name of the ginger flower, I had never heard this usage..

He laughed out loud, and commented that whoever thought that the word "temu" referred to a flower was clearly looking at the wrong end of the ginger plant.

It seems that "temu" is the word used to refer to spices that come from the root of a plant, as does ginger when used as a spice.

I did not know this, I think only a native speaker would know it.

The information in this photo caption is just about as wrong as it can be.

Paul de Souza · 9th November 2015, 03:39 PM

An old post by Dave Henkel from 2002. Gosh how time flies. How the mind fossilises. I have forgotten so much.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000918.html

David · 9th November 2015, 04:50 PM

Hey Paul, it's nice to see that you are still lurking about these parts. Hope you are well.

Paul de Souza · 9th November 2015, 05:09 PM

Hi David. Yah. Am well. Been lurking about. Lots to catch up with. Hope u are well too.

10th June 2015, 09:04 AM	#3
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris from Southern Thai Hi! Thanks for the clarification. When I compare the scabbord with those of Indonesia, it looked different, which is why I see that perhaps this Keris has the Madura hilt but Southern Thai styled scabbord? Regards,

11th June 2015, 09:25 AM	#6
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris Thanks! I am thinking of getting this and just wanted to make sure that the Keris with the Madura hilt fits with the Cerita blade are all correct..

31st October 2015, 06:04 PM	#9
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris

31st October 2015, 06:07 PM	#10
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris Keris.... Attached Images

31st October 2015, 06:39 PM	#11
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris Keris.... Thailand

10th June 2015, 05:26 AM	#1
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris Madura with Thai influences I am new to Keris and this hobby is very interesting and addictive as there are so much to learn. I have come across an interesting Keris in Thailand with a Madura hilt/ Hulu but style Thai for the blade and the shield. Any comment? Attached Images Last edited by maxbliss888; 10th June 2015 at 09:04 AM.

10th June 2015, 01:37 PM	#4
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris Photo Attached Images

11th June 2015, 11:18 AM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Of course there are a lot of older Keris with parts from different locations, and even more newer "marriages". If you go for the blade (which is a peninsular one) - even if its fit with the sheath is ok, it is quite worn, Greneng completely disappeared, Wadidang disturbed. You surely would come across a better Cherita blade someday.

16th June 2015, 09:03 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Hilt Madura, maybe blade too.

1st November 2015, 10:29 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Hi Max...i am afraid that there is nothing Thai about that hilt. Again i believe we are looking at a hilt from Madura, or possibly Northern Jawa. The pendokok at the base of this hilt i am not as certain about, but it is a mismatch with this particular hilt for sure and doesn't fit either by sizing or style. I cannot comment on the blade since you have not posted a photo of it. I have seen variations of this scabbard form used with keris from both Sumatra and the Peninsula. Is there some reasoning you are using to identify this keris a Thai that you can share for a better understanding of what you are talking about?

1st November 2015, 11:23 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	David, I think Max might be talking about the keris itself, ie, the blade, rather than the dress around the blade. There is a school of thought that holds that only the blade is the keris, all else is irrelevant.

2nd November 2015, 01:13 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Sorry David, my error, I was looking the keris in post #4.

2nd November 2015, 09:10 AM	#16
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris I think you all are right as there were alot of cross fertilization across Southern Thai/Northen Malaysia and Sumatra and the region... I think the Coteng and the Tajong have a stronger Southern Thai/Northern Malaysia identities...

3rd November 2015, 10:32 AM	#20
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Blade Please see the blade Attached Images

3rd November 2015, 10:32 AM	#21
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Blade Another Attached Images

3rd November 2015, 10:35 AM	#22
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Before and after restoration of the scabbard Photo before and after restoration Attached Images

3rd November 2015, 12:50 PM	#23
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris More photos Attached Images

8th November 2015, 12:38 PM	#24
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Hilt The Hulu .. Attached Images

8th November 2015, 12:49 PM	#25
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Hilt Tummenggungan Attached Images

8th November 2015, 07:37 PM	#26
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Yes Max, your keris does indeed have what some call a tumenggungan hilt that undoubtably originated in Madura. The oversized brass pendokok is a Bugis style AFAIK and inappropriate for this hilt both size-wise and culturally. The sheath form can be found on keris from both Sumatra and the Peninsula. I'll leave the origin of this blade to others. In it's current condition i am just not sure. Many times when we see keris ensembles that are a mishmash of cultures and styles to this degree they are mixes that have been slapped together my dealers in order to sell an ensemble that appears more complete. While this keris may well have been bought in Thailand it seems unlikely that calling it a Thai keris or even a keris with Thai influence is a valid or accurate descriptor.

9th November 2015, 11:17 AM	#27
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Max, I don't know what book you've presented a photo from, but I rather feel that the person who named that hilt form "temenggungan" is a little out of his depth. The correct name is actually "tumenggungan", this name does not come from any flower of anything, rather it comes from the word "tumenggung", which is a part of a bupati's title. A bupati is a regent, who is responsible for the administration of a kabupaten, which is a semi-autonomous administrative district. In the old days the position of a bupati tended to pass from father to son, so the family became something like minor nobility. The spelling "temenggungan" is a corruption which follows a local pronunciation. The name "tumenggungan" indicates that this form of hilt would be suitable for wear by a tumenggung. The way in which the title is used is, for example, "Bupati Tumenggung Surodiningrat". Incidentally, I probably should not be so positive as to say that this is the correct name, I probably should say that some people believe it to be the correct name. Edit --- A further note:- I just mentioned to an educated native speaker of Javanese the idea that the word "temu" is the name of the ginger flower, I had never heard this usage.. He laughed out loud, and commented that whoever thought that the word "temu" referred to a flower was clearly looking at the wrong end of the ginger plant. It seems that "temu" is the word used to refer to spices that come from the root of a plant, as does ginger when used as a spice. I did not know this, I think only a native speaker would know it. The information in this photo caption is just about as wrong as it can be. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 9th November 2015 at 11:43 AM. Reason: additional information

9th November 2015, 03:39 PM	#28
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 65	Keris Sari Bulan An old post by Dave Henkel from 2002. Gosh how time flies. How the mind fossilises. I have forgotten so much. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000918.html

9th November 2015, 04:50 PM	#29
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Hey Paul, it's nice to see that you are still lurking about these parts. Hope you are well.

9th November 2015, 05:09 PM	#30
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 65	Hi David. Yah. Am well. Been lurking about. Lots to catch up with. Hope u are well too.