A quiz for collectors of South-East-Asian swords

Sajen · 2nd November 2015, 08:09 PM

I have just bought this unusual sword off ebay, I have a imagination from where it is but don't want to post my point of view at the moment since I want to see what others think about the origin of this unusual sword. It is 37" long and the blade is 1/4" thick at the base and the blade has a central ridge all the way to the tip. Handle seems to be from palm wood but not sure. I am curious to read what you think about this sword.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 3rd November 2015, 12:05 AM

Detlef:

Before responding to your intriguing question, can you tell us if the blade edge is V-ground or a chisel-grind? I am thinking it is a long V-grind but hard to determine from the pics.

Ian.

Sajen · 3rd November 2015, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Detlef:

Before responding to your intriguing question, can you tell us if the blade edge is V-ground or a chisel-grind? I am thinking it is a long V-grind but hard to determine from the pics.

Ian.

Hello Ian,

the description from the seller: "Heavy blade is single edged but with a diamond cross-section similar to a Japanese naginata, and maintains a distinct central ridge all the way to the tip."

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 3rd November 2015, 02:55 PM

Detlef:

I think the deafening silence to your challenge over the last day or so reflects the unusual nature of this sword and a certain difficulty in placing it to a particular region or people.

I'll give it a try. Since you have specified a SE Asian origin, I won't consider other sources, although I would not rule out colonial areas in Central and South America.

First off, I have not seen a very similar sword previously, and it does not fit into any pattern with which I am familiar, which always makes me think of a mix of cultural styles or a specially commissioned item.

With that in mind, the hilt shows symmetrical small ferrules that appear to be made of brass, flanking a wooden handle that is not a cylinder but rather has a continuous swelling that is widest in the middle. It is hard to tell if the hilt is a full tang construction. While the dual ferrules might make me think of a Burmese or nearby origin, the swollen handle does not fit, nor the S-shaped cross guard. If we follow the mainland SE Asian thought, this hilt with an S-shaped guard would fit with a Chinese influence. An alternative source of the hilt and guard might reflect European influence/origin--such as the Spanish Philippines; French Indochina; British NE India, Burma or Malaya; or the Dutch East Indies.

The blade is more puzzling. A "diamond" cross section suggests prominent medial ridges on both sides of the blade. This is not a characteristic of native blades from SE Asia in my experience, and suggests a possible European influence. I have seen a single medial "ridge" on a couple of swords from the Philippines, but these had a corresponding triangular cross section (which is why I asked about the grind on the edge of this sword) and were distinguished by other Spanish elements (one had a Spanish inscription).

Lastly, the shape of the blade is odd--being of "saber" form but narrow at forte and then widening considerably towards the tip. There are various parang that show this shape, but the overall length (37") is much larger than typically found.

Unusually long swords can be found in the Assam area of India and nearby regions. A couple of examples from this area have medial "ridges," but those weapons have straight blades quite different from the present example. Your sword does not ring any bells for me in regard to native weapons from those areas.

So, if pushed for an opinion I would say this is a unique piece made for a specific individual, most likely a foreigner, possibly from the Philippines but hard to pin down the region. My second choice would be a Chinese-influenced piece from mainland SE Asia, possibly Vietnam.

As to age--early to mid-20th C.

Ian.

Sajen · 3rd November 2015, 07:18 PM

Hello Ian,

like usual very good observations and thoughts!

I think that it is an unusual dha from Cambodia with strong Vietnam influence, Cham region?
Regarding your age guess I agree complete, my guess would be 1920-1940.

Regards,
Detlef

Miguel · 3rd November 2015, 08:50 PM

Hi, I was thinking Thai, 1970ish.
Miguel

Ian · 4th November 2015, 05:04 AM

Miguel: It does not fit with recent Thai swords IMO.

Detlef: That is a very long sword for mainland SE Asia. I'm not familiar with the Cham swords. Can you provide more information on these?

Ian.

Shakethetrees · 4th November 2015, 05:00 PM

The grip to me, screams Spanish territory as a point of origin. The Philippines or Central/South America are loaded with edged weapons with this type of grip.

The guard, Chinese or SEA.

Can't make out the blade, though, it's an odd bird.

My best guess is a purpose made piece from the Philippines (lots of Chinese influence there) possibly for a Chinese client.

A wild card guess would be somewhere in SEA, where there are obscure forms about. I'm not familiar with this region, though.

You've captured my curiosity, though.

As for age, I would say somewhere between 1880 and 1930.

Gavin Nugent · 5th November 2015, 01:58 PM

The blade looks southern Vietnam by design.

The guard and hilt look ill fitted and of a very later period to the blade.

Gavin

Sajen · 6th November 2015, 05:27 PM

Thank you folks so far, I was very busy by work the last days, will respond later to your comments.

Regards,
Detlef

2nd November 2015, 08:09 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	A quiz for collectors of South-East-Asian swords I have just bought this unusual sword off ebay, I have a imagination from where it is but don't want to post my point of view at the moment since I want to see what others think about the origin of this unusual sword. It is 37" long and the blade is 1/4" thick at the base and the blade has a central ridge all the way to the tip. Handle seems to be from palm wood but not sure. I am curious to read what you think about this sword. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

3rd November 2015, 12:05 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Detlef: Before responding to your intriguing question, can you tell us if the blade edge is V-ground or a chisel-grind? I am thinking it is a long V-grind but hard to determine from the pics. Ian.

3rd November 2015, 02:55 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Detlef: I think the deafening silence to your challenge over the last day or so reflects the unusual nature of this sword and a certain difficulty in placing it to a particular region or people. I'll give it a try. Since you have specified a SE Asian origin, I won't consider other sources, although I would not rule out colonial areas in Central and South America. First off, I have not seen a very similar sword previously, and it does not fit into any pattern with which I am familiar, which always makes me think of a mix of cultural styles or a specially commissioned item. With that in mind, the hilt shows symmetrical small ferrules that appear to be made of brass, flanking a wooden handle that is not a cylinder but rather has a continuous swelling that is widest in the middle. It is hard to tell if the hilt is a full tang construction. While the dual ferrules might make me think of a Burmese or nearby origin, the swollen handle does not fit, nor the S-shaped cross guard. If we follow the mainland SE Asian thought, this hilt with an S-shaped guard would fit with a Chinese influence. An alternative source of the hilt and guard might reflect European influence/origin--such as the Spanish Philippines; French Indochina; British NE India, Burma or Malaya; or the Dutch East Indies. The blade is more puzzling. A "diamond" cross section suggests prominent medial ridges on both sides of the blade. This is not a characteristic of native blades from SE Asia in my experience, and suggests a possible European influence. I have seen a single medial "ridge" on a couple of swords from the Philippines, but these had a corresponding triangular cross section (which is why I asked about the grind on the edge of this sword) and were distinguished by other Spanish elements (one had a Spanish inscription). Lastly, the shape of the blade is odd--being of "saber" form but narrow at forte and then widening considerably towards the tip. There are various parang that show this shape, but the overall length (37") is much larger than typically found. Unusually long swords can be found in the Assam area of India and nearby regions. A couple of examples from this area have medial "ridges," but those weapons have straight blades quite different from the present example. Your sword does not ring any bells for me in regard to native weapons from those areas. So, if pushed for an opinion I would say this is a unique piece made for a specific individual, most likely a foreigner, possibly from the Philippines but hard to pin down the region. My second choice would be a Chinese-influenced piece from mainland SE Asia, possibly Vietnam. As to age--early to mid-20th C. Ian.

3rd November 2015, 07:18 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Ian, like usual very good observations and thoughts! I think that it is an unusual dha from Cambodia with strong Vietnam influence, Cham region? Regarding your age guess I agree complete, my guess would be 1920-1940. Regards, Detlef

3rd November 2015, 08:50 PM	#6
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Hi, I was thinking Thai, 1970ish. Miguel

4th November 2015, 05:04 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Miguel: It does not fit with recent Thai swords IMO. Detlef: That is a very long sword for mainland SE Asia. I'm not familiar with the Cham swords. Can you provide more information on these? Ian.

4th November 2015, 05:00 PM	#8
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	The grip to me, screams Spanish territory as a point of origin. The Philippines or Central/South America are loaded with edged weapons with this type of grip. The guard, Chinese or SEA. Can't make out the blade, though, it's an odd bird. My best guess is a purpose made piece from the Philippines (lots of Chinese influence there) possibly for a Chinese client. A wild card guess would be somewhere in SEA, where there are obscure forms about. I'm not familiar with this region, though. You've captured my curiosity, though. As for age, I would say somewhere between 1880 and 1930.

5th November 2015, 01:58 PM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	The blade looks southern Vietnam by design. The guard and hilt look ill fitted and of a very later period to the blade. Gavin

6th November 2015, 05:27 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Thank you folks so far, I was very busy by work the last days, will respond later to your comments. Regards, Detlef