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#1 |
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Join Date: May 2006
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Yes, I agree, I did consider raising the possibility of "ilang", but I do not know of a pronunciation of 'ilang' that uses a 'T' sound in front of the ilang, whereas an 'n' at the end of a word is sometimes given a 'g' sound, this is particularly common in Old Javanese, it is not exactly represented as a 'g', but when the Old Javanese word has come into Modern Javanese, the OJ "N" sometimes gains a MJ "G". I thought a similar thing might have applied with Malay.
But having said that I do not know of such a pronunciation, doesn't mean very much in this context, because my knowledge is pretty much limited to Jawa/Bali/Madura. Pronunciations of all words in these languages can and do vary all over the place, even today, people will vary a pronunciation simply to make the words sound better. In Jawa, people consider that they own the words that they use, and provided the other party understands, or appears to understand what is being said, they are not too particular with precise pronunciations. A similar attitude could apply in other areas also. If there is only the one mention 'tilang' in old sources, it is possible that the original information was misunderstood, possibly because of imperfect knowledge of Malay on the part of the original information gatherer, or perhaps because of the sentence structure that the information was given in. On the other hand, the fish concerned could, with a stretch of the imagination, vaguely resemble the particular weapon under discussion:- Macrognathus maculatus. |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Poole England
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Arjan, I had not realised that Banks was quoting Schelford. How accurate was he ? As Alan says, did he hear it wrong or misunderstand what he heard ? One reference is not much to go on is it ?
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#3 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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both articles are certainly worth to read and contain worth full information but good information was sometimes scarves and so the writer(s) had to relay on one single source. Than you can easily makes mistakes. Schelford was writing in 1901 while Banks wrote his article about 30 years later and between the lines in the Banks article you can see that. Some information isn't correct but otherwise the subject of the blade shapes ( usong) is very useful. Heppel reviewed these articles quite recent and also that article give some good info but also Heppell on his turn isn't perfect and there are also some mistakes in it. But all with all respect for all 3. About mistakes, I'will try to add the pictures of the TK. And then we see that or the description is wrong, or the tag is wrong or......... |
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#4 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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#5 |
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Interesting.
So we are talking about the scabbard, not talking about the sword, and the name of the scabbard is tilang kamaran. Kamaran comes from the root "kamar", now commonly understood as "a room". In Classical Malay there are several meanings for "kamar":- a room, a cabin, an upstairs room; a scarf, a girdle; the moon. These were taken straight from Wilkinson, the common usage that we all know is "a room", the other usages I've never heard of, but it is Wilkinson, so it is correct. I think "kamar" comes from the Dutch "kamer" = "a room". The suffix "an" could have been used to indicate something associated with a room, but not a room. For example, "bangun" is to "wake up, to get up", but "bangunan" is a building: something that has been raised up. I believe we can now forget all about dry seasons. In respect of "tilan/tilang". The tilan fish has a habit of hiding itself in river weeds and mud. Based on this new information I'd put my money on "tilang kamaran" being a humorous reference to a place where the tilang hides. The word tilang also being a humorous reference to the sword. I do not know Dyaks, but it would surprise me greatly if they did not have a sense of humour at least as well developed, probably more so, than any other people. |
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#6 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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I wonder if people who lived so close to nature should name a sword for warfare after a fish that hides himself in the mud it does;t sound so heroic ..... "Ilang" in stead of Tilang and " Kemari(n) " in stead of ' Kemarau or Kemaran" makes " Sword of yesterday " in other words "Sword of the past" In case it is really "kemarau"( the dry version) than I could imagine that the owner means that nothing ever happend with the sword " the sword is still dry" there's no blood on it" But I confess that's also a little fantasy , but actually is doesn't matter so much. Its actually more important that the type as seen on the picture has a name as that we figure out what that name it really means. Just name it TK and you're save kind regards, Arjan ![]() |
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#7 | |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
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Arjan:
What I am reading in your earlier post with the picture is the same interpretation as Alan has offered--the name is being applied to a sheath. The picture and description in your graphic refer to a sheath only--there is no mention of a sword in that catalog note. Alan has offered you an intriguing interpretation of what we can see in your picture, and he has pointed to the whimsical or humorous naming of it that would be in keeping with the local personality. Do you have additional information that this term refers to a particular sword. The sword that you have added in the same posting does not seem to match the catalog description of tilang kamaran. Ian. Quote:
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#8 | |
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If there is a Dutch component to kamar, I think we can trace the Dutch word back to Latin. The Latin word for a private room or chamber is camera. This is still heard today in English when legal matters are said to be conducted in camera, or in a private room free from public scrutiny.
Ian. Quote:
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#9 |
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Yep, we can blame that hated Latin for much.
In Classical Malay, "kamera" is a ship's cabin; in Italian a "camera" is a hotel room; Javanese also uses "kamar" for room; then we have the English camera, which is essentially a small room --- ie, small enclosed space --- and of course Ian's "in camera". Actually, the Oxford on Historical Principles devotes around 3 inches of column space to the word "camera" and its derivatives, and I need a magnifying glass to read the print. No wonder I hated Latin so much 60 odd years ago. As for the "kemarin" suggestion, well, yes, it does have the same vowels and consonants, but spoken, it has a sound nothing at all like "kamaran". Personally, I feel that we may have gone as far as it is possible to go in this matter, what is really needed now is somebody who can speak the language, who can live within the society, and who understands the culture. This person could then dedicate a large part of his life to getting at the real guts of the matter. In other words:- dedicated field research, in my experience, its the only thing that really works. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 22nd October 2015 at 12:46 AM. Reason: deletion of useless information |
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