The smell of the Indian swords.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th January 2005, 05:21 PM

The text below is from Robert Elgood’s book ‘Hindu Arms and Ritual’, page 206. Translated from Nujum al-Ulum, chapter 7, 1570. The Cherster Beatty Library, Dublin.

When tried and experienced it was found that the smell of the (good) sword should be like a lotus flower or a kaner/chanar flower, which is found everywhere in India; or it could smell like must (mad), the smell of an elephant in rut, or like the smell of certain oils. The indications of a bad (mazmum) sword are that the johar resembles poisonous leprosy sores, or that it bears on it the forms of a headless man, a kite or any of the forty-seven (or forty-nine) forms of scorpion. That the sword bears irregularities or cracks and does not ring true when struck. That in appearance it does not look well, or that it smells like the fat (charbi) from a fat-tailed sheep. Or that it smells like cows' urine, slimy mud, animals' guts or the blood of a tortoise (dallak pusht). The use of such a sword in time of war, or the carrying of such a sword in peacetime, is inauspicious.
The next thing that should be known concerning swords is that, if there are undulations on the sword blade that one wishes to make flat or, if the sword is extremely long and one wants to cut the blade down, the job should be done with a file and not with an instrument like an ishkanah12 or a hammer and the like, because we have come to the conclusion after experience that work done in this latter fashion does not have good results and leaves inauspicious influences in the sword.

So, run to the wall and start sniffing

Naga Basuki · 9th January 2005, 05:43 PM

Also I learned to smell the inside of the scabbard. There is an "old" smell that is unmistakable.

Scorpions are bad, huh?

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2005, 06:08 PM

This is but one example of the fascinating and perceptive material presented in Dr. Elgood's new book, which can only be described as magnificent work in my opinion. This work on Indian weapons far exceeds any of the venerable and well known works that have stood faithfully as the few references used to study Indian weapons. Robert Elgood enters into important examination of not simply the appearance and forms of the weapons, but the subjective and religious significance imbued in them, something that should be paramount in the study of ethnographic edged weapons, but often is avoided in many of the established references.This would exclude of course Indonesian weapons, the keris in particular, whose esoteric study is well represented on the forum by the knowledgable members and readers who are students of these weapons, and the specialized books focused on these weapons. After reading Elgood's book, I can now better realize the depth of the study of these fascinating weapons, and how they reflect profound influences from India.

This work is not only essential to those interested in Indian arms, it is of key importance in establishing the significance of weapons in studies of anthropology and ethnography as distinctive icons of material culture.
While many of these weapons have typically been considered items of art in the more elaborately decorated and sometimes lavish examples, it is important that even the most pedestrian of fighting weapons of these cultures often carry subtle symbolism of thier religion and tradition. This point is brought forth beautifully by Robert Elgood in this new book, as is illustrated by this example shown by Jens.

To me this book is like reading an adventure narrative, contrary to often dryly written academic material. The colorful text is intriguing and parallels outstanding photos, with the detailed references and treasure of footnotes which are characteristic of Robert Elgood's work, standing ready for continued scholarly research.

This book has been long awaited, and I know many have copies ordered, which should be soon arriving. I very much look forward to hearing opinions from others when they do receive their copies, and hope that this will advance the study and discussion of this also very esoteric area of arms and armour.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 9th January 2005, 06:27 PM

Hi Jim,

Thank you for your response, I fully agree with you about the book. Dr. Elgood has written a very interesting book, with a lot of fine pictures, not normally seen.

Regards

Jens

Marc · 9th January 2005, 06:35 PM

I indeed hope they do arrive soon... I had mine pre-ordered in June and hadn't heard anything from the publishing house since then, and now it seems the book it's been out for some months, already. May I ask when did you receive yours? Can't say I'm exactly happy with all this...

B.I · 9th January 2005, 06:42 PM

hi marc,
the book has been held up in the states, and the delay has caused problems everywhere. there were a small number of pre-sale copies distributed by robert, and a small number sold on by an english bookseller. the book has not reached general release, but i know it will be worth your wait.

RSWORD · 9th January 2005, 06:58 PM

I have also experienced the same problem with my early order. I inquired a couple of times to the publisher with no response. I do know it will be worth the wait and do hope it comes out soon. Elgood presented at last years Timonium dinner with many fascinating slides of his research in India and we had the opportunity to flip through a pre-edited copy. I understand his next work will be on Balkan arms and armour.

Marc · 10th January 2005, 11:53 AM

Oh, I'm totally sure i won't be disappointed with the book and that it is well worth the wait, it's the lack of information about the delay coming from the publishing house what annoys me...
So, it seems I'm not alone in this... ok, let's wait a little bit more and see if things clear up.
Thank you all for answering to my concern, gentlemen, I feel more at ease, now.

Sincerely
Marc

JPSF · 10th January 2005, 07:11 PM

BOOKFINDER.COM has 7 or 8 copies available from various worldwide booksellers including Powell's Books in Portland, Oregon. Maybe a stack will show up in Baltimore.

ariel · 11th January 2005, 02:35 AM

I ordered it today from Amazon.com
They promise to mail it on 1/20-24..
We shall see....

9th January 2005, 05:21 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The smell of the Indian swords. The text below is from Robert Elgood’s book ‘Hindu Arms and Ritual’, page 206. Translated from Nujum al-Ulum, chapter 7, 1570. The Cherster Beatty Library, Dublin. When tried and experienced it was found that the smell of the (good) sword should be like a lotus flower or a kaner/chanar flower, which is found everywhere in India; or it could smell like must (mad), the smell of an elephant in rut, or like the smell of certain oils. The indications of a bad (mazmum) sword are that the johar resembles poisonous leprosy sores, or that it bears on it the forms of a headless man, a kite or any of the forty-seven (or forty-nine) forms of scorpion. That the sword bears irregularities or cracks and does not ring true when struck. That in appearance it does not look well, or that it smells like the fat (charbi) from a fat-tailed sheep. Or that it smells like cows' urine, slimy mud, animals' guts or the blood of a tortoise (dallak pusht). The use of such a sword in time of war, or the carrying of such a sword in peacetime, is inauspicious. The next thing that should be known concerning swords is that, if there are undulations on the sword blade that one wishes to make flat or, if the sword is extremely long and one wants to cut the blade down, the job should be done with a file and not with an instrument like an ishkanah12 or a hammer and the like, because we have come to the conclusion after experience that work done in this latter fashion does not have good results and leaves inauspicious influences in the sword. So, run to the wall and start sniffing

9th January 2005, 06:08 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This is but one example of the fascinating and perceptive material presented in Dr. Elgood's new book, which can only be described as magnificent work in my opinion. This work on Indian weapons far exceeds any of the venerable and well known works that have stood faithfully as the few references used to study Indian weapons. Robert Elgood enters into important examination of not simply the appearance and forms of the weapons, but the subjective and religious significance imbued in them, something that should be paramount in the study of ethnographic edged weapons, but often is avoided in many of the established references.This would exclude of course Indonesian weapons, the keris in particular, whose esoteric study is well represented on the forum by the knowledgable members and readers who are students of these weapons, and the specialized books focused on these weapons. After reading Elgood's book, I can now better realize the depth of the study of these fascinating weapons, and how they reflect profound influences from India. This work is not only essential to those interested in Indian arms, it is of key importance in establishing the significance of weapons in studies of anthropology and ethnography as distinctive icons of material culture. While many of these weapons have typically been considered items of art in the more elaborately decorated and sometimes lavish examples, it is important that even the most pedestrian of fighting weapons of these cultures often carry subtle symbolism of thier religion and tradition. This point is brought forth beautifully by Robert Elgood in this new book, as is illustrated by this example shown by Jens. To me this book is like reading an adventure narrative, contrary to often dryly written academic material. The colorful text is intriguing and parallels outstanding photos, with the detailed references and treasure of footnotes which are characteristic of Robert Elgood's work, standing ready for continued scholarly research. This book has been long awaited, and I know many have copies ordered, which should be soon arriving. I very much look forward to hearing opinions from others when they do receive their copies, and hope that this will advance the study and discussion of this also very esoteric area of arms and armour. Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th January 2005 at 06:39 PM.

9th January 2005, 06:42 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	new book hi marc, the book has been held up in the states, and the delay has caused problems everywhere. there were a small number of pre-sale copies distributed by robert, and a small number sold on by an english bookseller. the book has not reached general release, but i know it will be worth your wait.

9th January 2005, 05:43 PM	#2
Naga Basuki Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Big old machine shop/foundry/warehouse in Atlanta GA USA Posts: 51	Also I learned to smell the inside of the scabbard. There is an "old" smell that is unmistakable. Scorpions are bad, huh?

9th January 2005, 06:27 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, Thank you for your response, I fully agree with you about the book. Dr. Elgood has written a very interesting book, with a lot of fine pictures, not normally seen. Regards Jens

9th January 2005, 06:35 PM	#5
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	I indeed hope they do arrive soon... I had mine pre-ordered in June and hadn't heard anything from the publishing house since then, and now it seems the book it's been out for some months, already. May I ask when did you receive yours? Can't say I'm exactly happy with all this...

9th January 2005, 06:58 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I have also experienced the same problem with my early order. I inquired a couple of times to the publisher with no response. I do know it will be worth the wait and do hope it comes out soon. Elgood presented at last years Timonium dinner with many fascinating slides of his research in India and we had the opportunity to flip through a pre-edited copy. I understand his next work will be on Balkan arms and armour.

10th January 2005, 11:53 AM	#8
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Oh, I'm totally sure i won't be disappointed with the book and that it is well worth the wait, it's the lack of information about the delay coming from the publishing house what annoys me... So, it seems I'm not alone in this... ok, let's wait a little bit more and see if things clear up. Thank you all for answering to my concern, gentlemen, I feel more at ease, now. Sincerely Marc

10th January 2005, 07:11 PM	#9
JPSF Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 56	BOOKFINDER.COM has 7 or 8 copies available from various worldwide booksellers including Powell's Books in Portland, Oregon. Maybe a stack will show up in Baltimore.

11th January 2005, 02:35 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I ordered it today from Amazon.com They promise to mail it on 1/20-24.. We shall see....