Old musket barrel for ID

Evgeny_K · 23rd July 2015, 07:38 PM

Dear all,

Is it possible to define origins of this musket barrel based of the shape of the muzzle ?

Regards,

Evgeny

fernando · 23rd July 2015, 07:55 PM

The barrel of an Indian Toradar ?

Evgeny_K · 23rd July 2015, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

The barrel of an Indian Toradar ?

This barrel was excavated here in Russia so I'm not sure that it's Indian.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd July 2015, 08:32 PM

Or a Miquelet Turkish...either way ... wrong part of Forum.... Please can this be shown on Ethnographic.... and a fuller picture please? Sorry crossing posts... Could be a wound barrel Turkish Miquelet??
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

fernando · 23rd July 2015, 08:43 PM

Now Evgeny shows us some more part of it; why not in the first place ?
If it has a percussion chimney, would not be (flintlock) Miquelete.
Let us see more pictures, in different angles; will you Evgeny ?

Evgeny_K · 23rd July 2015, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Now Evgeny shows us some more part of it; why not in the first place ?
If it has a percussion chimney, would not be (flintlock) Miquelete.
Let us see more pictures, in different angles; will you Evgeny ?

Sure, but not today. I'll try to make a better pics in two days.
As for percussion chimney, I think it could be a late alteration.

Marcus den toom · 24th July 2015, 08:03 AM

Just for comparison, this wound barrel specimen was sold yesterday att the Bonhams auction house.
Interesting to see how these damascus barrels where made.

Evgeny_K · 24th July 2015, 11:35 AM

Here are some additional pics of the barrel.
Total length is 113 cm
Barrel caliber is 2 cm

fernando · 24th July 2015, 12:46 PM

Alright; let's assume this may be further discussed in the Ethno section and move it over there.
... If you don't mind, Evgeny

Evgeny_K · 24th July 2015, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Alright; let's assume this may be further discussed in the Ethno section and move it over there.
... If you don't mind, Evgeny

ok

rickystl · 26th July 2015, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Just for comparison, this wound barrel specimen was sold yesterday att the Bonhams auction house.
Interesting to see how these damascus barrels where made.

Hi Marcus.
Now that's interesting. I wonder if that was intentionally made as a display piece or styling excercise? Or simply an unfinished barrel?
Rick.

rickystl · 26th July 2015, 06:08 PM

Hi Evgeny.
Just when I think I've seen most everything in Ethno firearms, something new pops up.

This is a tough one to pinpoint it's original origin. At first glance at the muzzle end, it says Indian Torador. And I'm convinced it did start life as a Torador barrel. The front sight even mounted on the top edge as typical Torador.
But the breech end of the barrel looks nothing like Torador construction. There is no swell at the breech, and there is an actual breech "plug and tang" which is probably threaded into the barrel. Torador barrels were flat at the breech end. The breeches were plugged by forge wlding (or similar). And the breech plug on this barrel, with it's slight curve downward, looks Europen in origin.
So, I'm going to say this barrel started life as made for an Indian Torador long gun. Later, back in the period, it was cut off at the brech end a genuine breech plug added, and converted to percussion with the addition of a drum and nipple as shown. There may have been breech damage to the barrel, thus the cut off and conversion. Even the rear sight slot looks exactly like the ones on Torador barrels. Could have been cut off and re-welded to the barrel.
Of course, I'm just speculating. It could be an Ottoman made barrel, with a Torador style muzzle, and converted to percussion. But I don't think so. For now, I'll stick with my first guess.

Rick.

Evgeny_K · 27th July 2015, 01:06 PM

Hi Rick,
I'm sure that it's not an Indian barrel.
The Ottoman origins are more probable I think.
Regards,
Evgeny

David R · 27th July 2015, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Marcus.
Now that's interesting. I wonder if that was intentionally made as a display piece or styling excercise? Or simply an unfinished barrel?
Rick.

I think you will find it was made as a display piece. I have seen something like this before.... Also you would need to forge each operation/piece to completion before starting the next. In its present form it would be impracticable to finish the barrel.

rickystl · 28th July 2015, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

Hi Rick,
I'm sure that it's not an Indian barrel.
The Ottoman origins are more probable I think.
Regards,
Evgeny

As I think further on this, you are probably right.
Rick.

rickystl · 28th July 2015, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

I think you will find it was made as a display piece. I have seen something like this before.... Also you would need to forge each operation/piece to completion before starting the next. In its present form it would be impracticable to finish the barrel.

Hi David.
Well, that's what I was thinking too. Sure would make an interesting display/conversation piece.
Rick.

trenchwarfare · 28th July 2015, 07:16 PM

I must be missing something. I see nothing that indicates an unfinished barrel? The breach is plugged, and the tang shows signs of heavy use, even damage. The area around the nipple shows deep pitting, which is an indication of repeated firing, over a long period of time. And then, there is the matter of what looks like battle damage, near the muzzle. I agree, that it is a recycled barrel of some sort. Looks Indian to me. Please, tell me what is unfinished.

David R · 28th July 2015, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Just for comparison, this wound barrel specimen was sold yesterday att the Bonhams auction house.
Interesting to see how these damascus barrels where made.

This one!

trenchwarfare · 28th July 2015, 07:55 PM

What does an incomplete barrel, in the process of being made, have to do with a complete, functioning barrel? The fact that you see alternating colored bands? I have a Japanese Murata, that is very complete, and has a barrel with two distinct color steel bands in the wrap. OK, I see now. The discussion went from the original post, to something totally different.

Evgeny_K · 11th August 2015, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

As I think further on this, you are probably right.
Rick.

Around the early 1600s, the technique had spread to the Ottoman Empire and later to Hungary and Spain by the 1650s. The defeat of the Turks in the Siege of Vienna in 1683 yielded thousands of captured pattern welded barrels for examination, and this event accelerated the manufacture of pattern welded barrels in Europe. By 1700, the Belgians were producing pattern welded barrels in Liege, and in the early 1800s, the technique was used in England to produce high quality sporting barrels.

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.ru/2...welded-or.html

kronckew · 11th August 2015, 07:42 PM

sadly, they look cool, but had a nasty habit of corroding preferentially at the welds due to corrosive primers and powder, resulting in somewhat spectacular failure when they UN-spiraled, which inevitably happened with long use. or when someone tried converting them to more modern propellants.

those pretty english spiral wound breech loading doubles generally come with a warning NOT to fire them with anything approaching a modern cartridge, and probably should not be fired at all. the only saving grace was that when they failed they tended to not spray shrapnel all over the place and unless you had your hand in a wrong place, you might survive wondering why your multi-kilobuck purdy now looked like a spring.

Pukka Bundook · 12th August 2015, 06:24 AM

There is a lot of incorrect information regarding stub twist and later 2 and 3-stripe Damascus, and how it shouldn't be used.
If good quality it can be as sound now as the day it was made.

I believe in Greener's (1910) book, it mentions destruction testing with Whitworth fluid steel barrels, other steel barrels and Damascus barrels.
The one that stood the most, was a good English 3-stripe Damascus, the second was also a Damascus,(2-stripe I think) and the third best was drawn steel.
After that, they went back and forth down the line.
We have in the family a few Damascus barreled old guns that have been nitro proved and passed with flying colours. One (second hand) was given to my grandfather for his 21st birthday in 1919. (Sidelock ejector) It has fired Thousand of cartridges and is still on the face and as sound as a bell.

The cheap "Sham-dam Damascus from the Continent and US has given all Damascus a bad name, quite un-deservedly!

Good quality is the key, as in all things. :-)

Best,
Richard.

Edited to add that although sound as a bell, any black powder proof barrel should not be used with Nitro powder, whether Damascus , stub twist or steel/iron.
Cheers,
R.

Evgeny_K · 12th August 2015, 03:31 PM

what about this barrel, gents ?

Pukka Bundook · 13th August 2015, 02:54 AM

Very sorry!

I believe it is a torador barrel, but re-worked at some time.
In England, oriental/Indian /Persian, barrels were quite popular at one time, re-breeched and fine bored if needs be, for use on good quality sporting guns, (18th century.)
I see no reason why other parts of the world could not have had a similar fad, so even if it came from Russia, this does not mean it cannot be from India originally.

All the best,
Richard.

23rd July 2015, 07:38 PM	#1
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	Old musket barrel for ID Dear all, Is it possible to define origins of this musket barrel based of the shape of the muzzle ? Regards, Evgeny Attached Images

24th July 2015, 08:03 AM	#7
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Just for comparison, this wound barrel specimen was sold yesterday att the Bonhams auction house. Interesting to see how these damascus barrels where made. Attached Images

24th July 2015, 11:35 AM	#8
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	Here are some additional pics of the barrel. Total length is 113 cm Barrel caliber is 2 cm Attached Images

12th August 2015, 06:24 AM	#22
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	There is a lot of incorrect information regarding stub twist and later 2 and 3-stripe Damascus, and how it shouldn't be used. If good quality it can be as sound now as the day it was made. I believe in Greener's (1910) book, it mentions destruction testing with Whitworth fluid steel barrels, other steel barrels and Damascus barrels. The one that stood the most, was a good English 3-stripe Damascus, the second was also a Damascus,(2-stripe I think) and the third best was drawn steel. After that, they went back and forth down the line. We have in the family a few Damascus barreled old guns that have been nitro proved and passed with flying colours. One (second hand) was given to my grandfather for his 21st birthday in 1919. (Sidelock ejector) It has fired Thousand of cartridges and is still on the face and as sound as a bell. The cheap "Sham-dam Damascus from the Continent and US has given all Damascus a bad name, quite un-deservedly! Good quality is the key, as in all things. :-) Best, Richard. Edited to add that although sound as a bell, any black powder proof barrel should not be used with Nitro powder, whether Damascus , stub twist or steel/iron. Cheers, R. Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 12th August 2015 at 02:05 PM. Reason: To clarify.

23rd July 2015, 07:55 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The barrel of an Indian Toradar ?

23rd July 2015, 08:32 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Or a Miquelet Turkish...either way ... wrong part of Forum.... Please can this be shown on Ethnographic.... and a fuller picture please? Sorry crossing posts... Could be a wound barrel Turkish Miquelet?? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

23rd July 2015, 08:43 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Now Evgeny shows us some more part of it; why not in the first place ? If it has a percussion chimney, would not be (flintlock) Miquelete. Let us see more pictures, in different angles; will you Evgeny ?

24th July 2015, 12:46 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Alright; let's assume this may be further discussed in the Ethno section and move it over there. ... If you don't mind, Evgeny

26th July 2015, 06:08 PM	#12
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Evgeny. Just when I think I've seen most everything in Ethno firearms, something new pops up. This is a tough one to pinpoint it's original origin. At first glance at the muzzle end, it says Indian Torador. And I'm convinced it did start life as a Torador barrel. The front sight even mounted on the top edge as typical Torador. But the breech end of the barrel looks nothing like Torador construction. There is no swell at the breech, and there is an actual breech "plug and tang" which is probably threaded into the barrel. Torador barrels were flat at the breech end. The breeches were plugged by forge wlding (or similar). And the breech plug on this barrel, with it's slight curve downward, looks Europen in origin. So, I'm going to say this barrel started life as made for an Indian Torador long gun. Later, back in the period, it was cut off at the brech end a genuine breech plug added, and converted to percussion with the addition of a drum and nipple as shown. There may have been breech damage to the barrel, thus the cut off and conversion. Even the rear sight slot looks exactly like the ones on Torador barrels. Could have been cut off and re-welded to the barrel. Of course, I'm just speculating. It could be an Ottoman made barrel, with a Torador style muzzle, and converted to percussion. But I don't think so. For now, I'll stick with my first guess. Rick.

27th July 2015, 01:06 PM	#13
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	Hi Rick, I'm sure that it's not an Indian barrel. The Ottoman origins are more probable I think. Regards, Evgeny

28th July 2015, 07:16 PM	#17
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	I must be missing something. I see nothing that indicates an unfinished barrel? The breach is plugged, and the tang shows signs of heavy use, even damage. The area around the nipple shows deep pitting, which is an indication of repeated firing, over a long period of time. And then, there is the matter of what looks like battle damage, near the muzzle. I agree, that it is a recycled barrel of some sort. Looks Indian to me. Please, tell me what is unfinished.

28th July 2015, 07:55 PM	#19
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	What does an incomplete barrel, in the process of being made, have to do with a complete, functioning barrel? The fact that you see alternating colored bands? I have a Japanese Murata, that is very complete, and has a barrel with two distinct color steel bands in the wrap. OK, I see now. The discussion went from the original post, to something totally different.

11th August 2015, 07:42 PM	#21
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	sadly, they look cool, but had a nasty habit of corroding preferentially at the welds due to corrosive primers and powder, resulting in somewhat spectacular failure when they UN-spiraled, which inevitably happened with long use. or when someone tried converting them to more modern propellants. those pretty english spiral wound breech loading doubles generally come with a warning NOT to fire them with anything approaching a modern cartridge, and probably should not be fired at all. the only saving grace was that when they failed they tended to not spray shrapnel all over the place and unless you had your hand in a wrong place, you might survive wondering why your multi-kilobuck purdy now looked like a spring.

12th August 2015, 03:31 PM	#23
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	what about this barrel, gents ?

13th August 2015, 02:54 AM	#24
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Very sorry! I believe it is a torador barrel, but re-worked at some time. In England, oriental/Indian /Persian, barrels were quite popular at one time, re-breeched and fine bored if needs be, for use on good quality sporting guns, (18th century.) I see no reason why other parts of the world could not have had a similar fad, so even if it came from Russia, this does not mean it cannot be from India originally. All the best, Richard.