Central Asian Knives

[harrywagner]

Any central Asian knife fans here? I have a small collection of Uighur, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan knives that I am rather fond of. The Uighur knives especially. I’ve attached a few photos. I got hooked after buying a large knife (the one with "Otkur" on the blade) that almost looked like a Bowie knife. There were differences though and the most troubling was that it had both Chinese and Arabic on the blade. I had to find out more. A web search turned up this trip report, which really got me hooked:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...93-trip-report

I am amazed at how few collectors have even heard of the Uighur people, much less own one of their amazing knives. I have come to the conclusion that they are the knife world’s best kept secret. Comments welcome and appreciated.

Best regards,
Harry

[ariel]

Nice knives.
There is a burgeoning knife industry in Xinjang, especially in Yengisar. Chinese authorities don't like it very much, because of several recent incidents whereby Muslim Uyghur separatists, armed with knives only, conducted mass attacks on Chinese civilians, police and even soldiers. However, souvenir industry is flourishing there. All of your knives are from that area, and are mostly souvenirs: the chain attached to the blade is the best proof. Most of the examples are "fantasy" items, and have very little to do with the traditional weapons, whereas some follow old ethnic examples, but add modern features.

Generally, the entire Central Asia has the same type of knives. Only in the Turkic areas they are called pichoks ( or p'chaks), whereas in the Farsi areas ( Tajikistan), they are called kords. The difference between them is miniscule: only dedicated "fanatics" are able to distinguish between the Uzbeki and Tajiki examples, and I saw and heard the summary of these heated discussions boiling down to : "kords look more blood-thirsty" .
Perhaps the only ( subtle) difference is the handle : on the kords it is often often more massive and round, with a cap-like pommel.

Turkmen knives are somewhat different: they serve both fighting and utilitarian purposes, and some are quite big ( one needs a big mama to slaughter a camel !). The knives of Saryk, Yomud and Teke Turkmen are somewhat different: some resemble Afghani Khybers ( no miracle, Afghanistan is next door and has sizeable Turkmen population). Saryk knives usually have longer and broader blades and rudimentary "ears": the thumb is inserted there for firmer stabbing. Handles MUST have at least some copper or bronze/brass details: the animal slaughtered without them is not ritually pure.

Blades are sometimes made of wootz, but those are likely imported. But generally, all Central Asian knives have surprisingly soft blades: shepherds did not want them to break first and foremost, but sharpening them with just a stone or, routinely, against the bottom of a "piala" ( just a ubiquitous tea saucer) was routine, frequent and easy.

In the past ( till the middle of 20th century) it was possible to distinguish ethnic ornamentation, but then everything became very homogenized. Not a miracle: a very significant percentage of Uzbekistan population are ethnic Tajiks. The same is true of their foods: only remnants of distinction are still in place: Uzbeks eat horse meat, but Tajiks do not. Uzbeks use a lot of dairy products, but Tajiks are not fond of it. These are unquestionably remainders of the Uzbeks' Turkic past. There are ethnic tensions: Tajiks view themselves as inheritors of the great Persian civilization, whereas Uzbeks are just a latecoming Mongol invaders. If you by mistake call a Tajik Uzbek, prepare to bear the consequences:-)

Finding old Central Asian weapons or even utility knives is a daunting task. Weapons were confiscated by the Communist Russians to uproot any vestiges of Basmatch movement; even now, old Central Asian shamshirs in major Russian ( and even -stans ) museums are rarer than hen's teeth. The entire military memory of the region was erased...

[Ian]

Ariel:

Is there any record of where these seized edged weapons went and what their fate was? Do you think they were salvaged as scrap steel and perhaps for some quality materials in the hilts and scabbards?

Ian

Originally Posted by ariel

... Finding old Central Asian weapons or even utility knives is a daunting task. Weapons were confiscated by the Communist Russians to uproot any vestiges of Basmatch movement; even now, old Central Asian shamshirs in major Russian ( and even -stans ) museums are rarer than hen's teeth. The entire military memory of the region was erased...

[blue lander]

Here's my pichok from Uzbekistan. It's completely brand new. Two stories to share about it.

1: I was showing a Central Asian fellow my sword/knife collection. He didn't speak much English but he seemed to know a thing or two and enjoyed seeing my collection. I showed him this Pichok, he glanced it at and said "junk" and went back to playing with my other sword. I asked him why, and he pointed to the back of the blade where it met the bolster. he seemed to indicate that it should be curved, like yours, rather than straight like mine. The fact that it wasn't indicated it was no good.


2: I struck up a conversation with an Uzbek man at a bar and mentioned I had a pichok. Long story short, he said they were made of junk metal and he'd never use one.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Ian

Ariel:

Is there any record of where these seized edged weapons went and what their fate was? Do you think they were salvaged as scrap steel and perhaps for some quality materials in the hilts and scabbards?

Ian

Destroyed, mostly. By the Russians in their part of Central Asia after the Civil War, by the Chinese after their occupation of Kashgar and, especially, during the Mao times...


When in 1944 Soviets forcibly moved the Chechens and the Daghestanis to Siberia, all their weapons were also confiscated. Some went to museums, more were appropriated by the Party bonzas, most were destroyed.

Unarmed society that, on top of it, is deprived of its memories of martial glory, is an emasculated society.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by blue lander

Here's my pichok from Uzbekistan. It's completely brand new.

........

2: I struck up a conversation with an Uzbek man at a bar and mentioned I had a pichok. Long story short, he said they were made of junk metal and he'd never use one.

Generally, he was correct: anything made by a multitude of mom-and-pop outfits for souvenir purposes is likely to be junky.
There still are real and acknowledged masters in that part of the world, who make first class examples, but they are few and far between.
That being said, I am wondering whether your bar acquaintance used the same criteria as the old native users: yes, the blades are soft and the edges turn relatively easily, but that was local preference. Soft blades did not break easily, and that was what the shepherds wanted. And there was no lack of ceramic pialas around:-)

[blue lander]

I think his exact answer when I asked him why he wouldn't use one himself was "Because I know what kind of metal they make them out of." I presume he's talking about junky tourist ones.

He was an older guy but who knows how much he knew about knives or metallurgy.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by blue lander

I think his exact answer when I asked him why he wouldn't use one himself was "Because I know what kind of metal they make them out of." I presume he's talking about junky tourist ones.

He was an older guy but who knows how much he knew about knives or metallurgy.

No doubt. There is a huge difference in 'stan' knives and Uighur knives, and even an amateur like myself can easily tell them apart. The Uighurs knives often come with a sheath, a hand-tooled leather sheath that was custom made for that knife. The 'stan' knives are hilarious. Campy and fun, but not worth a second look. And the Uighurs finish both sides of the knife. Typically the 'stan' knife makers follow the time honored Islamic knife making habit of only decorating the 'seen' side. Don't get me wrong - I don't mean to pick on the 'stan' knife makers. I have a few of those and I am quite fond of them. Some are quite nice, some just campy enough to be fun. Photos attached.

[Gavin Nugent]

A Central Asian knife fan here.

Here are some of my antique examples for viewing...others are hidden away here too, more on those when I locate them.

Gavin

[ariel]

Nice scabbards:-)
How about baring the blades?

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

A Central Asian knife fan here.

Here are some of my antique examples for viewing...others are hidden away here too, more on those when I locate them.

Gavin

Thanks. Those do look nice. I would love to see a few more pics, especially of the bottom piece. Thanks again!

[Gavin Nugent]

I'll save further naked images for individual threads when time permits.

For now here are a couple of links that show some more of their naked beauty;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...43&postcount=8

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=53

And one for good luck;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=48

Gavin