Anglo-Indian army swords

[Jens Nordlunde]

You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens

[sirupate]

Some lovely swords you have there Chris, thank you for the info about Mole being bought out by Wilkinson

[Silver John]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens

Very sorry if my last post came across as rude Jens, re-reading it I should have phrased it differently and started the post with "I think..." I am very new to these translations and still have a great deal to learn!

I also thought thought another possible translation of the 5th character (from the first pic) could be Dhaa?

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Silver John

I don't know if it'll be any help in identifying the origins, but the six characters on the top picture look like: Ri Ya S Ta Ha Taa.

Not sure about the 5th character as it's a bit blurred.

On the other example. The numbers are 1 and 4. The two characters look like Ga and Ja though there are additional marks on them (vowel diacritics? that I don't recognise)

Hi Silver John,

Many thanks for posting these up, most interesting.I shall give some thought to what your translation might signify.

One of the hilts shows some letters under the crest. I will tidy this up a little and take some better quality images, as this might reveal the state of origin with any luck.

I envy your ability with deciphering the characters, I have tried many times to get my head around it, but to no avail. Your efforts are much appreciated!

Originally Posted by sirupate

Some lovely swords you have there Chris, thank you for the info about Mole being bought out by Wilkinson

Thank you Simon,

Some of them took a long time to track down.

RWL wrote a history of Wilkinson a few years back, I can try and find the details if it might be of interest?

Kind regards,

Chris

[mrcjgscott]

Here are examples of the sword carried by the 33rd Cavalry.

The officers sword utilizes the 1821 "Honeysuckle" style guard, and the lower sword, for troopers, is based upon the 1908 cavalry sword.

If memory serves, the troopers sword was produced by B. Boota Singh and Son, of Rawalpindi. They obviously held several Indian Government contracts, as they also produced high quality kukri during WW1.

[mrcjgscott]

Another shot, alongside a standard British 1908.

[sirupate]

If you could dig up the details Chris, that would be great

[Silver John]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

One of the hilts shows some letters under the crest. I will tidy this up a little and take some better quality images, as this might reveal the state of origin with any luck.

That would be interesting to see.

I do not have enough knowledge on the topic to say with any confidence, but I believe the inscription is Marathi.

When I'm attempting these translations, I write down what I think it says and then type that into a program that converts roman alphabet into a range of Indian sub continent scripts. If I get a match, I know I'm getting better! The first character, Ri, only looks like that when I select the Marathi option. It is different in Hindi, still devanagari script, just a different way of putting it together. All the other characters remain the same however.

Perhaps this is a hint that it came from Maharashtra state? Or somewhere nearby?

[mrcjgscott]

"Mr Wilkinson of Pall Mall", by Robert Wilkinson Latham. Volume One 1772-1899, and Volume Two 1900-1972.

[Silver John]

Sorry to keep clogging this thread with more waffle, if I wasn't still in modded status I'd have tried to edit it all into one post.

Just discovered that Riyasata means something like Principality. So the last two characters are the key. If you can get a clearer pic it might be possible to establish which Principality it came from.

[mrcjgscott]

Silver John that is brilliant work, many thanks indeed!

I will give the thing a good once over to clean the gunk out, and get back to you with better images.

Kind regards,

Chris

[Jens Nordlunde]

Silver John,
No problem at all - I am glad you corrected me, that is what the forum is for - or am I mistaken :-).
Jens

[mrcjgscott]

Hi Silver John,

I owe you an apology I think: I keep forgetting to check up the thread for your moderated posts to appear, therefore I have missed some of your posts. I apologise if it seemed as though I was ignoring your contribution, it is indeed much appreciated!

Attached are some additional images of the crest. The quality is slightly dubious, due mostly to the rollercoaster which is British summertime!

I am happy to try again if they are not up to snuff!

Kind regards,

Chris

[Silver John]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Hi Silver John,

I owe you an apology I think

Not at all Chris! I just hope I'm not boring everyone to tears, or enraging those whose language I'm butchering.

Thanks for the clearer pictures. To me it looks like the fifth character is Tha + either I or O. Because of the way the bar at the top is squashed it's very hard for me to tell which it's supposed to be. It could be something else entirely though. The character for the aspirated retroflex Dha looks roughly similar, could be a poor version of that?

My best guess is Ri Ya Sa Ta Thi/Tho Ta. No Idea what that last bit could mean though!

I've attached some images, so you can decide for yourself.

[mrcjgscott]

This example was carried by Jacobs Horse.

It was manufactured by Wilkinson sword. One side was signed with their name in English, the other in Hindi. (Advertising is advertising!)

Note the similarities to the hilt of the British 1853 pattern.

Kind regards,

Chris

[mrcjgscott]

This sword was part of an India Office order placed with Robert Mole for 500 swords and 500 scabbards of Bengal Native Cavalry pattern dated 3rd August 1886. Sword priced at 10/6d each and scabbards at 8/3d.

The specification quotes: "The Hilt to be best cast malleable iron. the medallion to be stamped and pierced and neatly fitted to the hilt."

Almost certainly produced for Viceroy Commissioned Officers with the crown and Imperial cypher.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Silver John

Not at all Chris! I just hope I'm not boring everyone to tears, or enraging those whose language I'm butchering.

Thanks for the clearer pictures. To me it looks like the fifth character is Tha + either I or O. Because of the way the bar at the top is squashed it's very hard for me to tell which it's supposed to be. It could be something else entirely though. The character for the aspirated retroflex Dha looks roughly similar, could be a poor version of that?

My best guess is Ri Ya Sa Ta Thi/Tho Ta. No Idea what that last bit could mean though!

I've attached some images, so you can decide for yourself.

Further apologies SilverJohn,

Once again I completely missed this post of yours!

Many thanks indeed for taking the time to look into this conundrum. I don't have any gut reaction as to what it might mean, but I shall certainly give it some more thought.

Once again, your research is much appreciated!

Kind regards,

Chris

[mrcjgscott]

Here are a few pictures of an Indian Cavalry Sword made by Wilkinson, one of the few pieces I was not able to nail down a solid provenance for.

No orders seemed to remain extant for such pieces in the Wilkinson archive, and it was proposed that the sword may have indeed been a one off or trial piece.

It now resides with the Royal Armouries in Leeds.

[mrcjgscott]

Here are a few more shots, showing the typical double ring top mount found on these 1821 hilted, 1796 blades pieces.

Interestingly the scabbard has been "tarted up" post service with the addition of a bright velvet cover, so these blades may have been carried a long time after official service ended.

Do let me know if you are getting bored of these images, and I will stop!!

[scinde]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

OMG!!! THIS THREAD IS PHENOMENAL!!!
Thank you so much everybody for these amazing entries, and now that I catch my breath, Charles, that is the most amazing example of these British Raj hybrids I have ever seen! the paluoar!!! and then there is the tulwar with British 'gothic' folding guard!!

Chris, I cannot thank you enough for being the motivator in creating this thread as you have well initiated more activity in the study of the Indian tulwar concurrently on its own thread.

I think this is a textbook example of how to split an interesting item or topic from one thread to another so that the comingling does not defeat discussion on either. Jens, thank you for starting this thread, and everyone for participating with such great entries .

Chris, note on Charles 'paluaor' the fluting and the quadranted cross guard. This is what I was mentioning on the tulwars Jens and I were talking about on the tulwars from these Northwest regions. I would point out that Afghanistan in these times was distinctly considered part of India. Also that these 'paluoars' are actually a form of tulwar, notably associated with Afghan regions and reflecting Deccani and Mughal influences.

Charles, it is fascinating to see this blade, especially designated to MOLE!
It looks like watered steel, and with my incredibly poor understanding of the metallurgy of these blades, how is that possible ? I have seen plain tulwars attributed to MOLE, but nothing like this.

Its great that you guys have been in touch with Mr Wilkinson-Latham, who is probably one of the most phenomenal knowledge bases on these swords and Indian army weaponry. I do hope we might see some of the material mentioned here.

Chris, well noted on those 'Paget' pattern sabres, which indeed were M1822 hilts, and as mentioned, using the distinct heavier M1796 type blades.
I have only one of these (by MOLE) designated to 21C, 21st cavalry (Dalys Horse if I recall) which was in the Frontier Field Force.

Shake the Trees , still looking for data on Poona Horse, and also would like to see a sword of thiers!
I have seen Bombay Cavalry examples, but those are only ones so far that I can recall.

Thank you everyone, this is a great discussion.
and Charles, thank you again so much for that 'centerfold' !!! paluoar and the tulwar with British guard.

Hi Jim,

Just new to this forum and mainly interested in EIC and Indian Army, and wonder if I can ask specifically how your 21st Cavalry sword is identified. Would it be with the numerals 21 encircled with a large capital "C"?; and could you also mention the length of the blade, width at ricasso, and whether or not the blade is swamped and broadens before the point.

Gordon

[ariel]

OK, here is mine: 1796 handle, Indian Muslim blade with " No brave like Ali ..etc", pattern welded, dated 1165 ( 1751-2 Gregorian)

[Helleri]

What's up with the hinged guard on post #14 ?

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Scinde,
Great handle!!!!!
Thank you for reviving this great thread, and it would be excellent to get more going on these fascinating swords of the British Raj.

The sabre I have (which I do not have access to presently) is one of the Paget pattern (#6480) which was India Stores Pattern with three bar gothic hilt (M1821) and had a blade similar to M1796 with hatchet point .
If I recall there seems to have been two variations one to Bengal, one to Madras of 31" and 33" lengths. I do not have the measurements on mine.
The blade, while of the M1796 form, was not as heavy.

The MOLE stamp on blade back near forte.

The hilt was virtually identical to the British colonial sabre shown in
"Cut and Thrust Weapons" ( E. Wagner,1967, p.231, pl.8).

The marking 21C, if I recall was on the hilt, stamped with numbers and letter in line, same size.

The marking you describe sounds intriguing, and would like to know more on it . By your pseudonym, sounds like you have a keen interest in the Frontier Field Force, please tell me more.

Welcome to our forum!!!


Ariel, very nice example!!! especially with inscribed blade.


All best regards
Jim

[drac2k]

Here are what I believe to be 2 more Indian swords; the one with the modified guard, I think was with the Indian Mountain division.That sword is also marked on the guard " O.F.A. 20," and on top of the scabbard R.11.00 & 42 R A .

[Rumpel]

drac2k,

That looks like the coat of arms for Bharatpur State. See: http://www.flagheritagefoundation.or...ian-states.pdf

[drac2k]

Thank you for the information and that very informative link !

[scinde]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hello Scinde,
Great handle!!!!!
Thank you for reviving this great thread, and it would be excellent to get more going on these fascinating swords of the British Raj.

The sabre I have (which I do not have access to presently) is one of the Paget pattern (#6480) which was India Stores Pattern with three bar gothic hilt (M1821) and had a blade similar to M1796 with hatchet point .
If I recall there seems to have been two variations one to Bengal, one to Madras of 31" and 33" lengths. I do not have the measurements on mine.
The blade, while of the M1796 form, was not as heavy.

The MOLE stamp on blade back near forte.

The hilt was virtually identical to the British colonial sabre shown in
"Cut and Thrust Weapons" ( E. Wagner,1967, p.231, pl.8).

The marking 21C, if I recall was on the hilt, stamped with numbers and letter in line, same size.

The marking you describe sounds intriguing, and would like to know more on it . By your pseudonym, sounds like you have a keen interest in the Frontier Field Force, please tell me more.

Welcome to our forum!!!


Ariel, very nice example!!! especially with inscribed blade.


All best regards
Jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for response and welcome. The marking on back edge of blade near hilt is fairly typical for Mole and others, some Wilkinson blades marked on ricasso; whereas from my observations, regimental markings are generally found on the hilt, but sometimes on the blade. I'd still be interested to know the dimensions of your blade when convenient and if possible.

I've held a developing interest in EIC and Indian Army for something close to forty years, which primarily included the subjects of uniform, accoutrements, associated bits & pieces and of course swords, now primarily swords.

In relation to European Officers swords, my collection covers mainly cavalry, but also touching on Artillery, Engineers and Infantry. Alongside this I've also maintained a fairly serious interest in troopers swords, and find that (unless point broken and re-ground, which I very much doubt), the blades circa 1860-1900 across Bengal, Madras and Bombay can vary from nominally 30" inches up to 33" as you say, with considerable variation in hilt type.

Interests to do with Cavalry & Irregular Cavalry etc., one regiment in particular the 3rd Bombay Light Cavalry, as I have the sword that was carried by Captain Forbes when he lead the charge of the 3rd Bombay Cavalry at Kooshab (Persia) in 1857.

Core areas of study which have developed are Scinde Camel Corps, Poona Horse, Scinde Horse and Corps of Guides, Punjab Cavalry, their swords and others.

Regards,

Gordon

[G. Mansfield]

Adding another example that recently came my way. 1796 pattern style blade with 1821 pattern three-bar guard. Unfortunately, no maker markings or dates on the hilt or blade. Looks to have some age and quite robust and heavy. Certainly, a fighter!
Blade Length: 33” (83,9cm)
Hilt & Blade Length: 38 ¾” (98,4cm)

-Geoffrey

[Jim McDougall]

Geoffrey! Thank you for reviving this thread, and so glad you're still at it with the 'swords of the Raj' It seems we are a limited bunch as this area of collecting and study is not widely brought up.

What a great example of these 'colonial' sabers (as Wagner, "Cut & Thrust Weapons", 1967 calls them).
It seems that these 'Paget Pattern" #6480 (Wilkinson, but Mole produced many for them) were in 31 1/2" blades for Madras and Bombay forces; while the 33" were deemed for Bengal.

By those facts, very possible this might have been for a Bengal cavalry regiment, thus a good chance for lancers.

My example (by Mole) is marked to 21C, from 1904 called "Daly's Horse" but a unit of Frontier Force. Pretty exciting history of all these cavalry regiments of the Raj.

No idea what the numbers below 21C mean, there were so any number combinations with administrative coding.

[G. Mansfield]

Hi Jim, thank you for the information! I did not know of the designations for differentiating blade lengths and the possible associated with the Bengal forces with the 33” size. Your example is very similar and you’re lucky to have stampings attributed to the 21st calvary, a nice slice of history provenance. I will provide a few links that I have found if anybody is interested in some more information. The first: the Imperial War Museum, second: Australian War Memorial, and third: a brief Youtube video of the history and description of the type.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30001638
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C226996
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=k92PstHFQRM

-Geoffrey