Rubens hunter

Miqueleter · 30th June 2015, 10:41 AM

Greetings, I have been wanting to ask the members what variety of gunlock is pictured in Peter Paul Rubens An Autumn Landscape with a View of Hetsteen circa 1635. I believe it to be an agujeta of sorts. Detail in paintings leave a lot to the imagination. But given the time and place of the painting, agujeta or maybe some sort of romanlock seems likely.

Anyone care to take a stab at it?

[IMG]

[/IMG]

Fernando K · 30th June 2015, 06:05 PM

hello

I can not or will not enlarge the image to see the details ...

Fernando K

Miqueleter · 30th June 2015, 10:21 PM

Fernando K, I see what you mean. I will do some more work and come up with a zoomed image later today. Sorry about that.

Miqueleter · 30th June 2015, 11:19 PM

Fernando, as you may suspect, I am not a whiz at posting photos, so this one may be overkill.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

Fernando K · 30th June 2015, 11:50 PM

Quizás quisiste decir: Hola, Miguelete Es imposible aventurar alguna opinion, pero te diria que no se trata de la agujet porque no se ve el gancho de seguridad, detras del cock, y se adivina un resorte doblado del frizeen. Para mi, el artista quiso pintar un miquelete clasico. Por comparacion hay algunos autores españoles, que han reflejado exactamente la agujet y el miguelete. En este foro, hay un post iniciado por Matchlock, con la agujet en una pintura, hay una pintura de Francisco de Goya, Carlos III cazador, con una escopeta de miquelete Afectuosamente. Fernando K P

: He escrito agujet sin la A final por problemas con el traductor
Hello, Migueleter

It is impossible to venture any opinion, but I would say that is not the agujet because there is safety hook, behind the cock, and a bent spring frizeen guess. For me, the artist wanted to paint a classic miquelete.

By comparison there are some Spanish authors who have reflected exactly the agujet and miguelete. In this forum, there is a post initiated by Matchlock, with agujet in a painting is a painting of Francisco de Goya, Carlos III hunter with a shotgun miquelete

Affectionately. Fernando K

P: D: I have written without the final A agujet problems with the translator

Raf · 2nd July 2015, 10:55 AM

A comparison with one of our Algerian toe locks shown cocked and viewed at a similar oblique angle . Surely it has to be a toe lock which is one of the simplest and probably earliest form of snapping type locks . Competitive with the Miguelet in Spain , contemporary with the wheelock in Italy, widely distributed though Russia and primitive versions are still being used in Tibet.

kronckew · 2nd July 2015, 11:32 AM

poor doggie, his feet look like they've been worn out, all the ligaments stretched. one of my doggy rescue friends had a 2 yr., old galgo dog come in with feet like that from running all day behind a romany traveller's wagon.

Fernando K · 2nd July 2015, 09:45 PM

hello

In any case the plate is extended in front of Frizen, which does not happen in the agujet. In addition, there are some migueletes that cock pole is tilted, not straight or depends on the position (half-cock, full-cock)

However, the image can not hazard a review

Affectionately. Fernando

fernando · 2nd July 2015, 11:25 PM

Hi Miqueleter,
You have been long enough with us to know we strongly discourage links to web photo hosts. Links vanish and threads stay ... with blanks

Please care to upload pictures wit the forum attachment features, next time.

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2015, 01:47 AM

Migueleter, I would like to thank you for opening this thread! While I know little on these guns, I find it fascinating to see these art works analyzed in their content, especially the weaponry. This is an exciting view into history THROUGH the weapons.. and as noted, certain artists seem to have been remarkably accurate in depictions, giving us wonderful context.

The discussion here is most rewarding for those of us who wish to learn more on these arms, and as Fernando has well noted, it is disappointing to lose the illustrations so pertinent to it.

Best regards,
Jim

Shakethetrees · 3rd July 2015, 05:24 AM

Could it be a snaphaunce? The frozen appears to me to be of that type.

kronckew · 3rd July 2015, 07:50 AM

i suspect there is a bit of artistic license in the depiction of the weapon in the painting (and of the dog

).

p.s. -i'd posted (as attachment) a large screen capture of the hunter so we'd have it available in case Miqueleter's link broke. i have since found a much larger image of the whole painting to cut the hunter from & attached it above instead.

p.s. - don't think that helped much, still too little detail of the lock.

Raf · 3rd July 2015, 11:10 AM

Sorry to labour the point . If we are going to assume the diagonal line across the lock plate is an external mainspring then in both miquelet and toe locks the mainspring starts being roughly horizontal , that is parallel with the barrel . Or in some migulet's slightly up hill . In the Minqulet since the spring acts on the rear of the cock at full cock it points either downhill or roughly horizontal . in a toe lock at full cock the mainspring points uphill which I think is what is shown in the painting . Yes, the miquelet shown is Albanian but the principles the same . Anyway , to help people make up their own mind here are a couple of aqujetas ; sorry I have lost the source of the painting but I think its Spanish and the other possible candidates which are italian locks .

For clarification the aqujeta was the Spanish version of the Italian toe lock or romanlock and may have been introduced from Italy. The defining characteristic of the aqujeta is the dog catch behind the cock used to resolve the half cock problem. The cock is pulled back beyond the full cock position and the dog catch pushed forward to engage with the cock . Pulling the cock backwards slightly automatically disengages the catch and the cock drops onto the horizontally moving full cock sear which engages with the rear foot of the cock .

Miqueleter · 4th July 2015, 06:19 AM

RAF, thanks for saving my bacon with your correct posting of images. For all others (Fernando K, fernando, and Jim, ever the Gentleman) my apologies for being stupid by using another forums image rules. I will do better in the future. I could lay it all on a recent illness, but I'd be fibbing.

I'm liking the responses to the post. Guessing what a painter knew or had at hand for reference objects is just that-guessing.

Again, thanks to all.

30th June 2015, 10:41 AM	#1
Miqueleter Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Southern California Posts: 39	Rubens hunter Greetings, I have been wanting to ask the members what variety of gunlock is pictured in Peter Paul Rubens An Autumn Landscape with a View of Hetsteen circa 1635. I believe it to be an agujeta of sorts. Detail in paintings leave a lot to the imagination. But given the time and place of the painting, agujeta or maybe some sort of romanlock seems likely. Anyone care to take a stab at it? [IMG][/IMG]

30th June 2015, 11:19 PM	#4
Miqueleter Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Southern California Posts: 39	Fernando, as you may suspect, I am not a whiz at posting photos, so this one may be overkill. [IMG][/IMG]

30th June 2015, 11:50 PM	#5
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Quizás quisiste decir: Hola, Miguelete Es imposible aventurar alguna opinion, pero te diria que no se trata de la agujet porque no se ve el gancho de seguridad, detras del cock, y se adivina un resorte doblado del frizeen. Para mi, el artista quiso pintar un miquelete clasico. Por comparacion hay algunos autores españoles, que han reflejado exactamente la agujet y el miguelete. En este foro, hay un post iniciado por Matchlock, con la agujet en una pintura, hay una pintura de Francisco de Goya, Carlos III cazador, con una escopeta de miquelete Afectuosamente. Fernando K P: He escrito agujet sin la A final por problemas con el traductor Hello, Migueleter It is impossible to venture any opinion, but I would say that is not the agujet because there is safety hook, behind the cock, and a bent spring frizeen guess. For me, the artist wanted to paint a classic miquelete. By comparison there are some Spanish authors who have reflected exactly the agujet and miguelete. In this forum, there is a post initiated by Matchlock, with agujet in a painting is a painting of Francisco de Goya, Carlos III hunter with a shotgun miquelete Affectionately. Fernando K P: D: I have written without the final A agujet problems with the translator

2nd July 2015, 10:55 AM	#6
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	A comparison with one of our Algerian toe locks shown cocked and viewed at a similar oblique angle . Surely it has to be a toe lock which is one of the simplest and probably earliest form of snapping type locks . Competitive with the Miguelet in Spain , contemporary with the wheelock in Italy, widely distributed though Russia and primitive versions are still being used in Tibet. Attached Images

2nd July 2015, 11:32 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	poor doggie, his feet look like they've been worn out, all the ligaments stretched. one of my doggy rescue friends had a 2 yr., old galgo dog come in with feet like that from running all day behind a romany traveller's wagon. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 3rd July 2015 at 08:09 AM.

30th June 2015, 06:05 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	hello I can not or will not enlarge the image to see the details ... Fernando K

30th June 2015, 10:21 PM	#3
Miqueleter Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Southern California Posts: 39	Fernando K, I see what you mean. I will do some more work and come up with a zoomed image later today. Sorry about that.

2nd July 2015, 09:45 PM	#8
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	hello In any case the plate is extended in front of Frizen, which does not happen in the agujet. In addition, there are some migueletes that cock pole is tilted, not straight or depends on the position (half-cock, full-cock) However, the image can not hazard a review Affectionately. Fernando

2nd July 2015, 11:25 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Miqueleter, You have been long enough with us to know we strongly discourage links to web photo hosts. Links vanish and threads stay ... with blanks Please care to upload pictures wit the forum attachment features, next time.

3rd July 2015, 01:47 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Migueleter, I would like to thank you for opening this thread! While I know little on these guns, I find it fascinating to see these art works analyzed in their content, especially the weaponry. This is an exciting view into history THROUGH the weapons.. and as noted, certain artists seem to have been remarkably accurate in depictions, giving us wonderful context. The discussion here is most rewarding for those of us who wish to learn more on these arms, and as Fernando has well noted, it is disappointing to lose the illustrations so pertinent to it. Best regards, Jim

3rd July 2015, 05:24 AM	#11
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Could it be a snaphaunce? The frozen appears to me to be of that type.

3rd July 2015, 07:50 AM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	i suspect there is a bit of artistic license in the depiction of the weapon in the painting (and of the dog). p.s. -i'd posted (as attachment) a large screen capture of the hunter so we'd have it available in case Miqueleter's link broke. i have since found a much larger image of the whole painting to cut the hunter from & attached it above instead. p.s. - don't think that helped much, still too little detail of the lock. Last edited by kronckew; 3rd July 2015 at 08:25 AM.

3rd July 2015, 11:10 AM	#13
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Sorry to labour the point . If we are going to assume the diagonal line across the lock plate is an external mainspring then in both miquelet and toe locks the mainspring starts being roughly horizontal , that is parallel with the barrel . Or in some migulet's slightly up hill . In the Minqulet since the spring acts on the rear of the cock at full cock it points either downhill or roughly horizontal . in a toe lock at full cock the mainspring points uphill which I think is what is shown in the painting . Yes, the miquelet shown is Albanian but the principles the same . Anyway , to help people make up their own mind here are a couple of aqujetas ; sorry I have lost the source of the painting but I think its Spanish and the other possible candidates which are italian locks . For clarification the aqujeta was the Spanish version of the Italian toe lock or romanlock and may have been introduced from Italy. The defining characteristic of the aqujeta is the dog catch behind the cock used to resolve the half cock problem. The cock is pulled back beyond the full cock position and the dog catch pushed forward to engage with the cock . Pulling the cock backwards slightly automatically disengages the catch and the cock drops onto the horizontally moving full cock sear which engages with the rear foot of the cock . Attached Images Last edited by Raf; 3rd July 2015 at 03:48 PM.

4th July 2015, 06:19 AM	#14
Miqueleter Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Southern California Posts: 39	RAF, thanks for saving my bacon with your correct posting of images. For all others (Fernando K, fernando, and Jim, ever the Gentleman) my apologies for being stupid by using another forums image rules. I will do better in the future. I could lay it all on a recent illness, but I'd be fibbing. I'm liking the responses to the post. Guessing what a painter knew or had at hand for reference objects is just that-guessing. Again, thanks to all.