A Moroccan Pistol

rickystl · 14th June 2015, 11:54 PM

Since Kubur started a Thread on Moroccan pistols, I thought I would Post my "gun of the week" with........a Moroccan Pistol.

I picked this up at the recent Show in Timonium this past March. There are plenty of long guns available, but you seldom see Moroccan pistols - in any style - come up for sale (that wasn't made as a tourist item). The gun is in really nice condition with just a couple tiny issues.
LOCK: The lock is a Snaphaunce built in the Dutch style, but smaller, pistol size. Still retains most of it's brass overlay and makers mark, brass filled. The hammer won't quite hold at cock, and will require a minor sear adjusment, as most of these Snaphaunce locks do. But it was very well made with light engraving.
STOCK: The stock is in really good shape, with most of it's dark walnut finishing remaining. And 99.9% of it's fine silver wire remains. There is a tiny stone (looks like dark amber) at the upper wrist section that has a pin hole size crack. Hardly noticable. Only a couple very tiny handling marks. Otherwise, not a single crack or gouge on the stock.
BARREL: Good quality iron barrel with nice engraving at the breech. Bore needs cleaned. But no markings.

The screw on the barrel tang appears to be a later replacement.

The only real issue I have with the gun is the triggerguard. It is old. And it is a forging (vs a casting). But it looks like it was originally European, and came from, well, I don't know.

It's attached to the stock on the front of the guard only, with a tiny nail in a small, square cut-out on the stock. There is a small amount of red rust surrounding the nail. Which tells me the trigger guard was a much later replacement. There is no nail at the rear of the guard to keep it still. You can move the guard from side to side. Only the front nail holds it to the stock. And I can tell the rear of the guard had a longer tail at one time. The triggerguard does look OK on the gun. But I believe this pistol was originally made without a triggerguard. What are your thoughts?
Anyway, picture heavy, so hope you enjoy. And thanks for looking.
Rick.

rickystl · 14th June 2015, 11:56 PM

SOME MORE PICS.........

rickystl · 14th June 2015, 11:58 PM

STILL MORE.......

Kubur · 15th June 2015, 07:10 AM

Hi Rick,
I can read 1276 that is 1859 in Gregorian calendar.
I would like to see the Arabic inscription with it... It's a very good gun!!
Congratulations.
Kubur

Kubur · 15th June 2015, 07:36 PM

For me, your triggerguard is maybe from Spanish origin, but original to the making of your pistol and not added later. Possibly from a Spanish riffle, it's common with Moroccan pistols. Despite the fact that the "classical" Moroccan triggerguard is very rounded, almost circular and very close to the trigger.
Netherlands were Spanish territories from 1556 to 1714. Snaphaunce, miquelet or Ripoll were common in Holland and Spain. As you know, they influenced the Moroccan weaponery as Morocco was outside the Ottoman sphere... But I' sure that all the members know that better than me.
Kubur

rickystl · 20th June 2015, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Rick,
I can read 1276 that is 1859 in Gregorian calendar.
I would like to see the Arabic inscription with it... It's a very good gun!!
Congratulations.
Kubur

Hi Kubur.
How observant of you! 1276 (1859). I can't believe I didn't notice this till you mentioned it. Getting old I guess.

Thank you soooo much.

Here are better pics of both side of the grip. The other side looks like an Arabic inscription (?) May someone can make it out? Again, thanks for the notice!!!
Rick.

rickystl · 20th June 2015, 05:17 PM

For me, your triggerguard is maybe from Spanish origin, but original to the making of your pistol and not added later. Possibly from a Spanish riffle, it's common with Moroccan pistols. Despite the fact that the "classical" Moroccan triggerguard is very rounded, almost circular and very close to the trigger.
Netherlands were Spanish territories from 1556 to 1714. Snaphaunce, miquelet or Ripoll were common in Holland and Spain. As you know, they influenced the Moroccan weaponery as Morocco was outside the Ottoman sphere... But I' sure that all the members know that better than me.
Kubur

Thanks for your comments. Yes, the only trigger guards I recall seeing is the classical circular ones you mention, and in the other Thread you posted.
And yes, the butt stock does somewhat look like it was maybe influenced by the Spanish Ripoll style grip. But also notice that it was made without ANY provision for a ramrod, real or false - ala Caucassion style. The pistol is definately Moroccan. But it's the only one I've ever seen with this combination of styling. And it's very well made. Guess that's why I had to have it. LOL

TRIGGER GUARD: See pics below. There was never any provision to secure the rear of the trigger guard to the stock. You can freely move it side to side. I don't believe any gunsmith would have left the guard unsecured like that. Would be too easy to get caught/twisted in a belt/sash. There is a perfectly square cut out that the front of the guard sits in and secured with a nail. The half-round shape of the guard does not match the square cut out where it sits. That's why I think the trigger guard was a later addition. Maybe the square cut out held another inlay or stone? I can also tell the rear of the trigger guard had been shortened and filed smooth. So to me, the trigger guard is still a mystery.

Rick.

kahnjar1 · 20th June 2015, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Kubur.
How observant of you! 1276 (1859). I can't believe I didn't notice this till you mentioned it. Getting old I guess.

Thank you soooo much.

Here are better pics of both side of the grip. The other side looks like an Arabic inscription (?) May someone can make it out? Again, thanks for the notice!!!
Rick.

Not to throw cold water on the dating, but usually any date on an Arabic item is in ARABIC numerals. Also 1276 "C" would IMHO be rather unusual as the dating would be from the HIJRA calendar.
Stu

Kubur · 20th June 2015, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Not to throw cold water on the dating, but usually any date on an Arabic item is in ARABIC numerals. Also 1276 "C" would IMHO be rather unusual as the dating would be from the HIJRA calendar.
Stu

Dear Stu,
Not always. They used also our numeral (Arabic), the Arabs use the Indian one (known as Arabic). Our system but with the hirji calendar. I'm sure of the dating! I can post other examples on Moroccan powder flasks. Best,

kahnjar1 · 20th June 2015, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Stu,
Not always. They used also our numeral (Arabic), the Arabs use the Indian one (known as Arabic). Our system but with the hirji calendar. I'm sure of the dating! I can post other examples on Moroccan powder flasks. Best,

My point was more related to the letter "C" after the date, rather than the date itself.

BANDOOK · 21st June 2015, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

My point was more related to the letter "C" after the date, rather than the date itself.

I WAS OFFERED COUPLE OF MOROCCON PISTOLS FROM AN ANTIQUE DEALER IN MOROCCO ,BUT HE FOUND OUT THAT HE COULD NOT EXPORT THEM AS THEY WERE PROTECTED UNDER THE CULTURAL PROTECTION ACT,SO I COULD NOT BUY THEM.WOULD LOVE TO OWN ONE,CHEERS

rickystl · 21st June 2015, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

I WAS OFFERED COUPLE OF MOROCCON PISTOLS FROM AN ANTIQUE DEALER IN MOROCCO ,BUT HE FOUND OUT THAT HE COULD NOT EXPORT THEM AS THEY WERE PROTECTED UNDER THE CULTURAL PROTECTION ACT,SO I COULD NOT BUY THEM.WOULD LOVE TO OWN ONE,CHEERS

Hi Bandook.
Awww. Too bad. As mentioned, the only ones you usually see for sale are Tourist items. I just don't see many Moroccan pistols.
Rick.

Kubur · 22nd June 2015, 08:37 PM

Hi Both!
It's not completly true, it also depends on where you live...

Kubur · 21st October 2016, 06:23 PM

Here a Moroccan pistol found on the net very similar to Mister Rick
Best,
Kubur

14th June 2015, 11:54 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	A Moroccan Pistol Since Kubur started a Thread on Moroccan pistols, I thought I would Post my "gun of the week" with........a Moroccan Pistol. I picked this up at the recent Show in Timonium this past March. There are plenty of long guns available, but you seldom see Moroccan pistols - in any style - come up for sale (that wasn't made as a tourist item). The gun is in really nice condition with just a couple tiny issues. LOCK: The lock is a Snaphaunce built in the Dutch style, but smaller, pistol size. Still retains most of it's brass overlay and makers mark, brass filled. The hammer won't quite hold at cock, and will require a minor sear adjusment, as most of these Snaphaunce locks do. But it was very well made with light engraving. STOCK: The stock is in really good shape, with most of it's dark walnut finishing remaining. And 99.9% of it's fine silver wire remains. There is a tiny stone (looks like dark amber) at the upper wrist section that has a pin hole size crack. Hardly noticable. Only a couple very tiny handling marks. Otherwise, not a single crack or gouge on the stock. BARREL: Good quality iron barrel with nice engraving at the breech. Bore needs cleaned. But no markings. The screw on the barrel tang appears to be a later replacement. The only real issue I have with the gun is the triggerguard. It is old. And it is a forging (vs a casting). But it looks like it was originally European, and came from, well, I don't know. It's attached to the stock on the front of the guard only, with a tiny nail in a small, square cut-out on the stock. There is a small amount of red rust surrounding the nail. Which tells me the trigger guard was a much later replacement. There is no nail at the rear of the guard to keep it still. You can move the guard from side to side. Only the front nail holds it to the stock. And I can tell the rear of the guard had a longer tail at one time. The triggerguard does look OK on the gun. But I believe this pistol was originally made without a triggerguard. What are your thoughts? Anyway, picture heavy, so hope you enjoy. And thanks for looking. Rick. Attached Images

14th June 2015, 11:56 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	SOME MORE PICS......... Attached Images

14th June 2015, 11:58 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	STILL MORE....... Attached Images

15th June 2015, 07:36 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	For me, your triggerguard is maybe from Spanish origin, but original to the making of your pistol and not added later. Possibly from a Spanish riffle, it's common with Moroccan pistols. Despite the fact that the "classical" Moroccan triggerguard is very rounded, almost circular and very close to the trigger. Netherlands were Spanish territories from 1556 to 1714. Snaphaunce, miquelet or Ripoll were common in Holland and Spain. As you know, they influenced the Moroccan weaponery as Morocco was outside the Ottoman sphere... But I' sure that all the members know that better than me. Kubur Attached Images

20th June 2015, 05:17 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	For me, your triggerguard is maybe from Spanish origin, but original to the making of your pistol and not added later. Possibly from a Spanish riffle, it's common with Moroccan pistols. Despite the fact that the "classical" Moroccan triggerguard is very rounded, almost circular and very close to the trigger. Netherlands were Spanish territories from 1556 to 1714. Snaphaunce, miquelet or Ripoll were common in Holland and Spain. As you know, they influenced the Moroccan weaponery as Morocco was outside the Ottoman sphere... But I' sure that all the members know that better than me. Kubur Thanks for your comments. Yes, the only trigger guards I recall seeing is the classical circular ones you mention, and in the other Thread you posted. And yes, the butt stock does somewhat look like it was maybe influenced by the Spanish Ripoll style grip. But also notice that it was made without ANY provision for a ramrod, real or false - ala Caucassion style. The pistol is definately Moroccan. But it's the only one I've ever seen with this combination of styling. And it's very well made. Guess that's why I had to have it. LOL TRIGGER GUARD: See pics below. There was never any provision to secure the rear of the trigger guard to the stock. You can freely move it side to side. I don't believe any gunsmith would have left the guard unsecured like that. Would be too easy to get caught/twisted in a belt/sash. There is a perfectly square cut out that the front of the guard sits in and secured with a nail. The half-round shape of the guard does not match the square cut out where it sits. That's why I think the trigger guard was a later addition. Maybe the square cut out held another inlay or stone? I can also tell the rear of the trigger guard had been shortened and filed smooth. So to me, the trigger guard is still a mystery. Rick. Attached Images

15th June 2015, 07:10 AM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Rick, I can read 1276 that is 1859 in Gregorian calendar. I would like to see the Arabic inscription with it... It's a very good gun!! Congratulations. Kubur

22nd June 2015, 08:37 PM	#13
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Both! It's not completly true, it also depends on where you live...

21st October 2016, 06:23 PM	#14
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Here a Moroccan pistol found on the net very similar to Mister Rick Best, Kubur Attached Images