Tomas Aiala Cup hilt rapier.

fernando · 11th June 2015, 02:41 PM

After measure conversions, conclusion is that both nations allowed an equivalent sword length ... let alone the Portuguese preventing foul play with the hilt size.
Here attached the first part of Dom João III law published in 1539, where can be read the part: quality and condition that be do not bring in my realms and estates sword longer than five palms of ell: entring in them the grip and the pommel

Also here attached a high quality seven palm sword from the beg. XVII century and a rare example of a stretchable sword, both in legal and ilegal attitude. It is dated around 1640 and has an inscription VIVA EL REY DE PORTUGAL.
(both belonging in the collection of Rainer Daehnhardt)

The thesis that too long swords are implausible because they can not be unsheathed and re-sheathed has also been discussed here but, if a trouble maker is decided to go exhibit his point of view carrying with him his advantage, that will not be an obstacle; he simply has to go for it with a naked sword, thus not needing to take along his page to unsheath it for him. Ethics and aestethics don't count much in such occasions.

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kronckew · 11th June 2015, 05:20 PM

if you can parry and close with him a bit inside his point, he's dead. unless he has a parrying (main gauche) dagger on his off hand and you get TOO close. if you also have a left handed dagger, it turns into a nasty knife fight.

i got a good smack from my epee teacher in college when my practice opponent made a mistook and his blade was grabable with my left, so i did. i poked him with mine a few times while the instructor, a rather aged hungarian about 5 ft 2 in. tall and 80-something got into range and gave me a good one on the butt with his fencing sabre. it's apparently against the rules

so is half-swording.ah, well... (he apparently got jumped by a few thugs one night on the subway going home thru the bronx in NYC. bad move. he put three in the hospital with his cane, he was small but all muscle and fast when he wanted to be.)

one of my favourite series was 'sharpe', i recall in the 'waterloo' episode one british cavalry officer commenting on french lancers that 'once you get past the point it's like killing rabbits'.

a similar instance early in ww1 saw a rare engagement between a british cavalry unit with swords and a similar sized german lancer unit actually charged each other. the brits had little trouble doing the rabbit thing and the german force retreated. the brits tried to cut them off but ran into a farmer's barbed wire fence and had to halt. a foreboding of things to come. one, if not the last, f the few actual cavalry engagements before the trenches and concertina'd barbed wire stopped all that noble stuff.

ps. - re the extensible sword, i had a vision of a few rubber bands between the hilt and the guard, you could hold the guard in your right hand and pull back on the hilt with the left, aim & let go.

just don't miss

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th June 2015, 10:09 PM

Salaams all~I spoted a very interesting website on the subject of these swords from the highly specialised metalurgical and scientific viewpoint on http://www.academia.edu/858988/Metal..._rapier_blades

There is an excellent section on blades with the correct blademarks but which are actually not of that maker...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th June 2015, 10:12 PM

Salaams all~I spoted a very interesting website on the subject of these swords from the highly specialised metalurgical and scientific viewpoint on http://www.academia.edu/858988/Metal..._rapier_blades

There is an excellent section on blades with the correct blademarks but which are actually not of that maker.....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kronckew · 18th June 2015, 09:43 AM

interesting article, thanks.

the use of different steels and iron in different areas of the blade and the conclusion that some 'toledo' marked blades were actually made in solingen was interesting too.

sadly, i was looking thru a new catalogue from a spanish supplier and they are now proudly listing a spanish cup hilt rapier with a toledo stainless steel blade. how far the mighty have fallen.

fernando · 18th June 2015, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... sadly, i was looking thru a new catalogue from a spanish supplier and they are now proudly listing a spanish cup hilt rapier with a toledo stainless steel blade. how far the mighty have fallen.

Much to the taste of those fans of replicas

11th June 2015, 02:41 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	After measure conversions, conclusion is that both nations allowed an equivalent sword length ... let alone the Portuguese preventing foul play with the hilt size. Here attached the first part of Dom João III law published in 1539, where can be read the part: quality and condition that be do not bring in my realms and estates sword longer than five palms of ell: entring in them the grip and the pommel Also here attached a high quality seven palm sword from the beg. XVII century and a rare example of a stretchable sword, both in legal and ilegal attitude. It is dated around 1640 and has an inscription VIVA EL REY DE PORTUGAL. (both belonging in the collection of Rainer Daehnhardt) The thesis that too long swords are implausible because they can not be unsheathed and re-sheathed has also been discussed here but, if a trouble maker is decided to go exhibit his point of view carrying with him his advantage, that will not be an obstacle; he simply has to go for it with a naked sword, thus not needing to take along his page to unsheath it for him. Ethics and aestethics don't count much in such occasions. . Attached Images

11th June 2015, 05:20 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	if you can parry and close with him a bit inside his point, he's dead. unless he has a parrying (main gauche) dagger on his off hand and you get TOO close. if you also have a left handed dagger, it turns into a nasty knife fight. i got a good smack from my epee teacher in college when my practice opponent made a mistook and his blade was grabable with my left, so i did. i poked him with mine a few times while the instructor, a rather aged hungarian about 5 ft 2 in. tall and 80-something got into range and gave me a good one on the butt with his fencing sabre. it's apparently against the rules so is half-swording.ah, well... (he apparently got jumped by a few thugs one night on the subway going home thru the bronx in NYC. bad move. he put three in the hospital with his cane, he was small but all muscle and fast when he wanted to be.) one of my favourite series was 'sharpe', i recall in the 'waterloo' episode one british cavalry officer commenting on french lancers that 'once you get past the point it's like killing rabbits'. a similar instance early in ww1 saw a rare engagement between a british cavalry unit with swords and a similar sized german lancer unit actually charged each other. the brits had little trouble doing the rabbit thing and the german force retreated. the brits tried to cut them off but ran into a farmer's barbed wire fence and had to halt. a foreboding of things to come. one, if not the last, f the few actual cavalry engagements before the trenches and concertina'd barbed wire stopped all that noble stuff. ps. - re the extensible sword, i had a vision of a few rubber bands between the hilt and the guard, you could hold the guard in your right hand and pull back on the hilt with the left, aim & let go. just don't miss Last edited by kronckew; 11th June 2015 at 05:31 PM.

17th June 2015, 10:09 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all~I spoted a very interesting website on the subject of these swords from the highly specialised metalurgical and scientific viewpoint on http://www.academia.edu/858988/Metal..._rapier_blades There is an excellent section on blades with the correct blademarks but which are actually not of that maker... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

17th June 2015, 10:12 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all~I spoted a very interesting website on the subject of these swords from the highly specialised metalurgical and scientific viewpoint on http://www.academia.edu/858988/Metal..._rapier_blades There is an excellent section on blades with the correct blademarks but which are actually not of that maker..... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

18th June 2015, 09:43 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	interesting article, thanks. the use of different steels and iron in different areas of the blade and the conclusion that some 'toledo' marked blades were actually made in solingen was interesting too. sadly, i was looking thru a new catalogue from a spanish supplier and they are now proudly listing a spanish cup hilt rapier with a toledo stainless steel blade. how far the mighty have fallen.