A little chest ... and an amazing contents

[fernando]

A portuguese small chest made of oak wood. Surely old, 18th or even 17th century, judging by the iron work and wooden nails; correction will be gladly accepted.
I wouldn't know its purpose, whether multi use or a specific activity.
Messures are 44 X 30 X 30 cms.
But what it brings this to attention is its interesting contents. Made of bone, i gather these are sweing devices ... needle and all.
Anyone here knows when steel sewing needles appeared or, better, when bone sewing needles were actvive, assuming these are actualy sewing tools ?
The largest one measures 8 cms.

.

[Kubur]

Hi Fernando
Is it bone or ivory?
Do you have good photographs of the key?
Best,
Kubur

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Fernando
Is it bone or ivory?...

I wouldn't know by myself; will ask someone with more knowledge next Monday.

Originally Posted by Kubur

Do you have good photographs of the key? ...

I didn't care to show it as some restorer told me this isn't the original one; period (older) keys would have a different configuration, he said.

.

[Kubur]

Thanks
I' not an expert and it's just my opinion.
I think they are ivory objects (elephant ivory).
I think the key is original and old keys can be like that.
And the metalwork on your chest looks like 18th or even 19th...
15th-17th c. caskets have more elaborated metalwork (like on the picture attached). It's just my opinion. I like old doors and old locks...

[Rick]

Shouldn't the key profile fit the key hole ?
The one shown doesn't seem to .

Those don't look like sewing implements to me .

[Shakethetrees]

The implements are bone. Ivory has a creamy, consistent color not filled by spotting left from marrow channels. The grain should be gently curved parallels that intersect, giving a somewhat "checkered" curving that has no variation in texture. The crudeness of the carving is also an indication of bone, as it as a raw material was not nearly as valuable as real ivory.

They remind me of 1812 POW work made to make a little money during their internment.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

A portuguese small chest made of oak wood. Surely old, 18th or even 17th century, judging by the iron work and wooden nails; correction will be gladly accepted.
I wouldn't know its purpose, whether multi use or a specific activity.
Messures are 44 X 30 X 30 cms.
But what it brings this to attention is its interesting contents. Made of bone, i gather these are sweing devices ... needle and all.
Anyone here knows when steel sweing needles appeared or, better, when bone sweing needles were actvive, assuming these are actualy sewing tools ?
The largest one measures 8 cms.

.

Salaams Fernando... I will have a guess and state that you have here a specialized carpenters toolbox ...The carpenter a specialist in cabinet making ...I have a Portuguese/ Goan small chest which I will post picture... inlaid with simple Ivory though I have seen very intricate designs also...The Key is the same or similar on my item. This looks like a European wood as you say "Oak" whereas here they tended to be Jacaranda wood. Very Interesting.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

Shouldn't the key profile fit the key hole ?
The one shown doesn't seem to .

Those don't look like sewing implements to me .

The key fits perfectly the key hole; not only the into the hole itself but also the 'groove' to let it turn inside the lock.

.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

The implements are bone. Ivory has a creamy, consistent color not filled by spotting left from marrow channels. The grain should be gently curved parallels that intersect, giving a somewhat "checkered" curving that has no variation in texture. The crudeness of the carving is also an indication of bone, as it as a raw material was not nearly as valuable as real ivory.

They remind me of 1812 POW work made to make a little money during their internment.

I am also inclined to assume the little objects are made of bone. Not being practical sewing implements, then they would be something else, possibly miniatures. Not necessarily made by POW; they came with the chest, provenance of a country house in Northern Portugal.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Fernando... I will have a guess and state that you have here a specialized carpenters toolbox ...The carpenter a specialist in cabinet making ...I have a Portuguese/ Goan small chest which I will post picture... inlaid with simple Ivory though I have seen very intricate designs also...The Key is the same or similar on my item. This looks like a European wood as you say "Oak" whereas here they tended to be Jacaranda wood. Very Interesting.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Maybe ... maybe not, Ibrahiim. Carpenter boxes would have a more practical shape; not with that faceted chest top, not so many iron work and not so small; those sections would hardly support carpenter tools. And that 'secret' compartment beneath the top looks more like being for a domestic purpose.
My assumption that the wood is oak is based on the guy that sold it to me, who works in the timber trade.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Thanks
I' not an expert and it's just my opinion.
I think they are ivory objects (elephant ivory).
I think the key is original and old keys can be like that.
And the metalwork on your chest looks like 18th or even 19th...
15th-17th c. caskets have more elaborated metalwork (like on the picture attached). It's just my opinion. I like old doors and old locks...

I might be completely wrong but, i find it hard to realize that in the 19th century, chests or other wood works were built with wood nails. As certainly iron works weren't elaborated in all kinds of furniture; rustic pieces would certainly be more simple.

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by fernando

Not necessarily made by POW; they came with the chest, provenance of a country house in Northern Portugal.

Remember that Portugal was within the operational area of the Peninsular Wars, early 19th century.

I don't know if there were detention camps for POW's there, but, of so, this could be the connection.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Remember that Portugal was within the operational area of the Peninsular Wars, early 19th century.

I don't know if there were detention camps for POW's there, but, of so, this could be the connection.

Indeed the number of prisioners during this period in the area was immense, mostly on the move from Spain to Britain, where they were detained in castles, towns and hulks in both countries; not only caused by the Peninsular war but also provenant from many nations, basicaly due to period Napoleonic wars. I don't recall having read about specific local prisioner camps, but they might have well existed.

[M ELEY]

An awesome chest, Fernando! I've been looking at similar sea chests to add to my collection, but funding is scarce as yet! There is a small chance this could be sailor's chest, as I've seen similar. Any chance the bone items are whale bone? Scrimshaw bone objects, just as ivory, were a common hobby amongst sailors-
Mark

[Roland_M]

Hello Fernando,

a very nice treasure chest with interesting content.

I think, this is a toolbox of a fisherman or another type of seaman. The long needle looks like a net- or sail needle.

It is the same type of needle like on the hat of "Captain" Jack Sparrows.

Portugal does have a great marine history.


Regards Roland

[fernando]

Thanks a lot for the romantic approach, Roland

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Perhaps too difficult to decide however I think looking at mother of pearl needlework tools at https://www.pinterest.com/pin/210965563768460228/ and then considering the possibility of pearl divers tools and equipment...the nose clip in particular is a thought.... Otherwise I give up !
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[fernando]

I can't say i can associate these luxury implements in the link to those full of rusticity i have posted.
Maybe some day someone finds something of the kind and tell their use ... if any