Basket hilted swords

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim, Yes!!....Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=blade+marks at #196

There is another with just an H inside the Running Fox at#15 ON http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?86414-Samuel-Harvey-question-(British-sword-maker)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thanks so much Ibrahiim, and I was going through old notes last night and found some discussions in which Eljay was indeed included and my notes from 2008. Apparantly there were notable variations in the stamps and inscriptions used by Samuel Harvey Sr,; Junior, and grandson the third. Many had the name or initial and no fox, but the fox with SH was well known, in c.1750. The fox with simple 'H' seems an anomaly as the number of them seems limited.
In my thinking, various means of marking and signing blades was not necessarily a chronological development, so trying to establish a date period with a mark probably not that reliable. I know that is the case with the running wolf marks of Passau/ Solingen contrary to the Wagner plate showing examples with period. These were pretty much free form and varied widely in any time of application.

PS thanks for the link to that thread.....the good ole days!

[Cathey]

Hi Guys,

When it comes to blade marks this sword has a huge variety of them.

Date Circa 1610-40
Overall Length 39 ¾” 111cm
Blade length 34 1/8” 86.7 cm
Blade widest point 1 1/8” 2.8 cm
Hilt widest point 4 ½” 11.6 cm
Inside grip length 3 ¼” 8.2 cm
Marks, etc. running wolf mark, Orb and Cross, Early Anchor mark

Description
English basket hilt sword of early form, approx. 102cm overall length with approx. 86cm straight backsword blade. Wire bound fish skin grip, steel guard of early type with the unusual feature of a loop for a sword knot in the Spherical pommel. The single edged blade with a single broad fuller in inlaid in pattern with the running wolf mark, Orb and Cross, Early Anchor mark and what appears to be a cross and circle near the hilt.

General Remarks
Complex Anchor Mark looks like that of Johannes Stam Circa 1612 Germania

References:
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS Pp65
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS. Pp67
MOWBRAY, Stuart C BRITISH MILITARY SWORDS VOLUME ONE 1600-1660 The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army Pp122

OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR
“by the last years of the sixteenth century, these basket hilts had begun to become associated with the Highland Scots and the Irish. This was probably because many of the Highland Chiefs had holdings in Ulster, and in the Irish wars of Queen Elizabeth’s time there were many Highland mercenaries in Ireland. Whatever the reason, these hilts became known as ‘Irish hilts’ in the early years of the seventeenth century.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ... Just bring on the pictures I was talking about....Highlander Mercs at Stettin with the Swedish Army in 1630, A skit by the English at the time of the Jacobite Rebellion, Sword Styles on a Kelso Abbey Charter 12thC? ...which by accident triggers the question when did the Basket Hilt and Sword appear in Scottish hands? It is interesting that the sketch at Stettin shows no basket swords and I attach the other two pictures since the weapons shown are of that period and for interest....and comment.

My suggestion is that as the Highlanders were referred to as Irishmen that the term migrated later when referring to the Irish Basket Hilt when in fact there was no such thing. As a general pointer I tend to agree with the Gaalic connection but I doubt if there was ever an Inniskillin Irish Sword as such. I suppose that there could have been the odd one off item but insofar as a mass bulk store of Irish Basket Hilts ...no I don't think so.

Regarding the S and what initially appear as Fleur De Lys shapes on Baskets ...this is also not as I first thought since it is clear from references like MAZANSKY that the S shape was purely coincidental and stood for no word such as Scotland or Stirling but was a very effective blocking shape easily arrived at on the nose of the anvil...The Fleur de Lys having nothing to do with the romantic idea of that design linking it to France (rather unfortunately in my opinion) but simply to bull horns.

An excellent idea to keep it all together here as one big thread and Cathey has reminded me with her excellent opener at #1 that would it be possible to have all/most of the main Bibliography references at the front end automatically attached ?...Assuming that there is a program that will do that...and as a humble request to the Forum electronic Wizards...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All...As a footnote to the above post please note that in the 30 years war in which Stettin was won by the Swedish Empire; Solingen was under extreme pressure and the net result (including the destruction of the city) insofar as sword transmission was the migration to Shotley Bridge of some of the great Sword Makers of Solingen..

It may not be against the laws of possibility that German Swords were taken back to Scotland by the Mercenaries at Stettin. Not with standing the considerable effect of the Sinclair situation..and that of the Walloon Sword and its influence please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword not to mention Andrew Ferrera ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent posts Ibrahiim, and thank you for the great illustrations on some of the circumstances which were likely the source for the development of the basket hilt sword in Scotland. Indeed these North European short, heavy sabres many of which were 'dusagge' form had distinctively notable enclosed guards compellingly of such form. As always, the issue is often debated however these origins are most generally held.

Good points on the hilt elements which look like fluer de lis, but as noted by Mazansky, these are in his view actually representations of a rams head. In the case of the 'S' shaped element in hilt construction, I'm not sure if Mazansky made the distinction noting the significance of the 'S' (as possibly to Sterling; Scotland or such key words) but I know it has been noted in many cases with other authors on Scottish arms.

The Solingen phenomenon is probably one of the foremost subtopics in the study of European swords, naturally blades, and indeed this industrial 'machine' became dominant in their production. While the Hounslow and Shotley Bridge situations were indeed key in English swords from mid 17th into early 18th century, the emigration of Solingen makers was also well known into the Netherlands, France, Russia and of course Spain.

In the study of Scottish basket hilted swords, the fact that their blades are invariably of German production, or in some cases appearing to be so, these are the kinds of investigations which help us understand better the dynamics of these most important weapons.

The beginning of this thread by Cathey was remarkably well placed and offered great opportunities to see excellent examples of these swords from her own collection as well as other important holdings. While the unfortunate disruption may have discouraged her continued participation here, which I hope is not the case, I do hope we can continue gainful discussion to learn more on these weapons.

[Cathey]

Scottish Blade with numerous armourers marks!

Hi Jim, did you miss the sword I just posted #106. I put this up deliberately for those that get excited about sword blades and armourers marks as this one is covered in them. The last one I am still yet to identify.

The Irish sword comment is clearly explained by:

OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR
“by the last years of the sixteenth century, these basket hilts had begun to become associated with the Highland Scots and the Irish. This was probably because many of the Highland Chiefs had holdings in Ulster, and in the Irish wars of Queen Elizabeth’s time there were many Highland mercenaries in Ireland. Whatever the reason, these hilts became known as ‘Irish hilts’ in the early years of the seventeenth century.”

Surely someone there has a comment on the last marking I posted; I will repost all of the pictures now.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

This is a follow up post to the German basket from the last half of the 1500s that I submitted earlier. Most of these basket types that I've seen have a conical pommel, but here's one with a round pommel. The sword was/is in the Higgins Armoury collection, and there doesn't appear to be any info online; just these two photos. The description listed the sword as a baskethilted rapier.

--ElJay

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent posts Ibrahiim, and thank you for the great illustrations on some of the circumstances which were likely the source for the development of the basket hilt sword in Scotland. Indeed these North European short, heavy sabres many of which were 'dusagge' form had distinctively notable enclosed guards compellingly of such form. As always, the issue is often debated however these origins are most generally held.

Good points on the hilt elements which look like fluer de lis, but as noted by Mazansky, these are in his view actually representations of a rams head. In the case of the 'S' shaped element in hilt construction, I'm not sure if Mazansky made the distinction noting the significance of the 'S' (as possibly to Sterling; Scotland or such key words) but I know it has been noted in many cases with other authors on Scottish arms.

The Solingen phenomenon is probably one of the foremost subtopics in the study of European swords, naturally blades, and indeed this industrial 'machine' became dominant in their production. While the Hounslow and Shotley Bridge situations were indeed key in English swords from mid 17th into early 18th century, the emigration of Solingen makers was also well known into the Netherlands, France, Russia and of course Spain.

In the study of Scottish basket hilted swords, the fact that their blades are invariably of German production, or in some cases appearing to be so, these are the kinds of investigations which help us understand better the dynamics of these most important weapons.

The beginning of this thread by Cathey was remarkably well placed and offered great opportunities to see excellent examples of these swords from her own collection as well as other important holdings. While the unfortunate disruption may have discouraged her continued participation here, which I hope is not the case, I do hope we can continue gainful discussion to learn more on these weapons.

Salaams Jim, I honestly cant remember where I picked up the Mazansky detail...but thanks for the correction...

Salaams Cathey, I can probably assure you that everyone is burrowing into their research notes trying to pull the answer to the blade marks you have published but as I see it...the running Passau Wolf is so similar to about 4 different styles although the closest is possibly the 1597 Peter Munsten at#225 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=blade+marks which I use as the main library thread for all of my references here.

In reference to orbs...#226 shows Johannes Wundes and explains how the Imperial Orb was used in front and after names or slogans and not as a blade mark per se..

I saw some excellent detail on other marks/Passau wolves at #38 and #66 and #44. and when the time comes to discus moon strikes how many sword makers were using the moon; proving that at least it was very commonly used and not the domain of any particular blade maker...and if I can reinforce the idea that the thread is superb and sits stronger together so discussion on blade and hilt may be considered...

With reference to the question Irish Hilts I started looking for Irish Hilt manufacturing centres and other than small producers of specialized natures like the Dublin family firm of Read and Co...nothing pops up whereas commaon sense indicates that British Regiments likely furnished from England..and probably Scotland. The linkage to Highland Mercenaries is a sidebranch stumbled on by pure accident and whilst it possibly changes nothing it seemed to me an interesting excursion..and led me along the road to Stettin and the 30 years war...vital ingredients to any study of this famous sword...and I had no idea they put Sinclairs stuff in a museum close to where he fell..in Norway at Gudbransdalen...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys,

When it comes to blade marks this sword has a huge variety of them.

Date Circa 1610-40
Overall Length 39 ¾” 111cm
Blade length 34 1/8” 86.7 cm
Blade widest point 1 1/8” 2.8 cm
Hilt widest point 4 ½” 11.6 cm
Inside grip length 3 ¼” 8.2 cm
Marks, etc. running wolf mark, Orb and Cross, Early Anchor mark

Description
English basket hilt sword of early form, approx. 102cm overall length with approx. 86cm straight backsword blade. Wire bound fish skin grip, steel guard of early type with the unusual feature of a loop for a sword knot in the Spherical pommel. The single edged blade with a single broad fuller in inlaid in pattern with the running wolf mark, Orb and Cross, Early Anchor mark and what appears to be a cross and circle near the hilt.

General Remarks
Complex Anchor Mark looks like that of Johannes Stam Circa 1612 Germania

References:
LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS Pp65
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS. Pp67
MOWBRAY, Stuart C BRITISH MILITARY SWORDS VOLUME ONE 1600-1660 The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army Pp122

OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR
“by the last years of the sixteenth century, these basket hilts had begun to become associated with the Highland Scots and the Irish. This was probably because many of the Highland Chiefs had holdings in Ulster, and in the Irish wars of Queen Elizabeth’s time there were many Highland mercenaries in Ireland. Whatever the reason, these hilts became known as ‘Irish hilts’ in the early years of the seventeenth century.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hi Cathey,

beautiful basket hilt mounted with a beautiful German imported rapier blade.
it's nice to see that rapier blades with a blunt ricasso were also used on basket hilts because it is not possible to bend the index finger around the ricasso due to the basket, so the ricasso has no function here.
This diamond shaped rigid blade is ideal for the thrust.

Anchors are often wrongly perceived as a makersmark, however these anchors are purely decorative and placed for example, at the end of a fuller, or in the middle of a diamond shaped blade.
Attribution to Johannes Stam can not be made merely on basis of a similar anchor and without his other marks the typical IS under a crown.
In Albert Weyersberg Solinger schwertschmiede 1926 ,p 27 is a Solingen blade described with an almost identical in copper inlaid Passau wolf and orband cross .see image
this blade is attributed by Weyersberg to Johannes kirschbaum.

best,
Jasper