Iberian longsword evidence?

batjka · 21st March 2015, 03:35 PM

There seems to be a lot of discussion concerning provenance of longsword in Iberian peninsula in 13th-15th centuries. Sources point to a "double-handed" sword tradition that existed before Destreza. Allegedly, some manuals were published in the early 15th Century that describe Spanish longsword system. But all of them have been lost. The only remaining sources come from 16th century, as one on montante by Figuieiredo.

But if the longsword was actually in wide use on the Iberian peninsula, there must be archeological and artistic evidence of such. Are there preserved examples of Spanish and Portuguese longsword in museums or private collections? Any art showing these weapons in Spain or Portugal?

I hope such esteemed and knowledgeable gentlemen as yourselves can help resolve this puzzle.

Thank you in advance.

fernando · 21st March 2015, 05:10 PM

Two handed swords (Montantes) are often mentioned in chronicles of the Portuguese discoveries period, for one.
They were used by nobles, those educated to train with such weapons.
Not many around presently, though ... or they are well kept in private collections.
A couple examples can be seen in Lisbon Military Museum; including those having apparently belonged to notable fiugures; Henry the Navigator and Vasco da Gama

.

batjka · 21st March 2015, 05:40 PM

Thank you very much, Fernando. These swords are beautiful!

My understanding is that a montante lays somewhere in between a longsword and a great sword in length and weight. A longsword would be around 120-130cm in length and 1200-1800gm in weight. A great sword is 3-3.5kg and up to 170cm in length. A montante is somewhere in the middle? What are the measurements of the known montantes, such as the ones shown above?

fernando · 21st March 2015, 06:06 PM

One is 157 cms and another one 175 cms.

batjka · 21st March 2015, 08:19 PM

Made a mistake, Figuieiredo is a 17th Century source.

Are there any depictions of montantes in Spanish art of the period? I would love to be able to see them. In German and other European paintings, a longsword as well as the bigger Greatsword are well I represented. I'm looking for Iberian sources.

Fernando, thank you again for your knowledge and help.

fernando · 22nd March 2015, 02:13 PM

Browse the web with term Mandoble (double hand). You will find many offers for replicas, like that of Carlos V, which means there were also originals. With some insistence and a bit of luck you will find images of the real thing.

batjka · 22nd March 2015, 04:55 PM

Thank you for your suggestion, Fernando. I was able to locate a couple of more Iberian two-handed swords here:

http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/node/68

It shows several swords made in the early and late 16th Century. These swords are located in the Army Museum of Madrid, according to the captions.

batjka · 22nd March 2015, 05:12 PM

I also found a sword allegedly belonging to Fernando el Catolico. This is a typical longsword of 15th Century Europe. So there's some tangible proof of a longsword use in Spain at that time:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/47878...ill_010_lg.jpg

fernando · 22nd March 2015, 08:09 PM

Are you happy now ?

ulfberth · 25th March 2015, 09:40 AM

This one is in La Real Almeria in Madrid Spain, it is in the same style and probably of Spanish origin

Kind regards

Ulfberth

21st March 2015, 03:35 PM	#1
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	Iberian longsword evidence? There seems to be a lot of discussion concerning provenance of longsword in Iberian peninsula in 13th-15th centuries. Sources point to a "double-handed" sword tradition that existed before Destreza. Allegedly, some manuals were published in the early 15th Century that describe Spanish longsword system. But all of them have been lost. The only remaining sources come from 16th century, as one on montante by Figuieiredo. But if the longsword was actually in wide use on the Iberian peninsula, there must be archeological and artistic evidence of such. Are there preserved examples of Spanish and Portuguese longsword in museums or private collections? Any art showing these weapons in Spain or Portugal? I hope such esteemed and knowledgeable gentlemen as yourselves can help resolve this puzzle. Thank you in advance.

21st March 2015, 05:10 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Two handed swords (Montantes) are often mentioned in chronicles of the Portuguese discoveries period, for one. They were used by nobles, those educated to train with such weapons. Not many around presently, though ... or they are well kept in private collections. A couple examples can be seen in Lisbon Military Museum; including those having apparently belonged to notable fiugures; Henry the Navigator and Vasco da Gama . Attached Images

25th March 2015, 09:40 AM	#10
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 401	This one is in La Real Almeria in Madrid Spain, it is in the same style and probably of Spanish origin Kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

21st March 2015, 05:40 PM	#3
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	Thank you very much, Fernando. These swords are beautiful! My understanding is that a montante lays somewhere in between a longsword and a great sword in length and weight. A longsword would be around 120-130cm in length and 1200-1800gm in weight. A great sword is 3-3.5kg and up to 170cm in length. A montante is somewhere in the middle? What are the measurements of the known montantes, such as the ones shown above?

21st March 2015, 06:06 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	One is 157 cms and another one 175 cms.

21st March 2015, 08:19 PM	#5
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	Made a mistake, Figuieiredo is a 17th Century source. Are there any depictions of montantes in Spanish art of the period? I would love to be able to see them. In German and other European paintings, a longsword as well as the bigger Greatsword are well I represented. I'm looking for Iberian sources. Fernando, thank you again for your knowledge and help.

22nd March 2015, 02:13 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Browse the web with term Mandoble (double hand). You will find many offers for replicas, like that of Carlos V, which means there were also originals. With some insistence and a bit of luck you will find images of the real thing.

22nd March 2015, 04:55 PM	#7
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	Thank you for your suggestion, Fernando. I was able to locate a couple of more Iberian two-handed swords here: http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/node/68 It shows several swords made in the early and late 16th Century. These swords are located in the Army Museum of Madrid, according to the captions.

22nd March 2015, 05:12 PM	#8
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	I also found a sword allegedly belonging to Fernando el Catolico. This is a typical longsword of 15th Century Europe. So there's some tangible proof of a longsword use in Spain at that time: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/47878...ill_010_lg.jpg

22nd March 2015, 08:09 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Are you happy now ?